Pump the flop or wait...

#1 07-30-2005, 02:21 AM

I like waiting. Even though the turn card is scary, I'm still protecting my hand (if it's best). Let me what you guys think:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button caps, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (15 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Button calls.

River: (21 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB

mikeyvegas · #2 07-30-2005, 02:23 AM

Pump the flop, you have the TPTK and the Kc.

jskills · #3 07-30-2005, 02:24 AM

I like raising on the flop vs this many opponents and the board being two flushed. You can thin the field and get heads up vs button (who BTW the hand was played I'm putting on kings).

The line you took looked like it worked for you, but I'd prefer it more if it were used in a heads up situation.

#4 07-30-2005, 02:52 AM

The motivation behind my line wasn't to slowplay.

The pot on the flop was 24SB. Raising the flop won't protect my hand against gutshots, two-pair trip draws, and obviously a flush draw or an OE straight draw will not fold.

If I raise the flop, the pot will be around 20BB, now in addition to gutshots and pairs, a pocket-pair will have the odds to play for their set when I bet the turn.

Waiting till the turn and hoping my opponent bets so I can raise him and force out weak draws gives me the best opportunity to win the pot.

I value bet the river, since my read was KK as well and the other player would call with a pair of deuces in a pot this large.

ArturiusX · #5 07-30-2005, 02:56 AM

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The pot on the flop was 24SB. Raising the flop won't protect my hand against gutshots, two-pair trip draws, and obviously a flush draw or an OE straight draw will not fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

And somehow raising the turn will?

#6 07-30-2005, 03:08 AM

With my opponent's bet on the turn, there was 16BB in the pot. With my raise, the pot is 18BB, an opponent with a clean gutshot is now making a marginal call, and he might be inclined to fold since the board is suited; opponents with 2 and 3 outs are now making a clear mistake if they do call. Raising the flop and betting out the turn accomplishes very little besides letting your opponents draw to longshots for the right price.

mikeyvegas · #7 07-30-2005, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With my opponent's bet on the turn, there was 16BB in the pot. With my raise, the pot is 18BB, an opponent with a clean gutshot is now making a marginal call, and he might be inclined to fold since the board is suited; opponents with 2 and 3 outs are now making a clear mistake if they do call. Raising the flop and betting out the turn accomplishes very little besides letting your opponents draw to longshots for the right price.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think you're putting to much thought into this hand. What do you estimate your equity is on the flop? Turn? I just think you missing out on some bets on the flop especially at 2-4. I would lead out on this flop hoping I'd get a chance to 3 bet. You could have also got for a flop Bet-call and turn check-raise if you're so worried although I wouldn't advise that with such a big pot. If I had KK, QQ, JJ...(pp) on the button I may have checked the flop and drawn to a set for free. Talk about getting a good price to draw! And again, you have the Kc which make me a little less worried about that draw. Lastly, how much would it have sucked if the button checked through on the turn? That's the real reason why I would have taken this hand by the horns on the flop.

ArturiusX · #8 07-30-2005, 02:50 AM

Why protect your hand? Why not make weak aces pay for calling down with only 4 outs? Why not make mid pockets pay for being donks?

You only wait for the turn when a lot of cards can hurt you on the turn, not AK on a normal board.

#9 07-30-2005, 02:59 AM

Because they are not making a mistake by calling with weak Aces or gutshots or even a pocket pair. If I raise the flop, 2, 3, and obviously 4 outers are correct in calling a flop raise.

I'm not focusing on winning more bets, I trying to maximize my chance to win the pot.

Waiting till the turn is the only way you can do that.

Check out the examples is SSH, "When the pot gets extremely large."

Jeff W · #10 07-30-2005, 03:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why protect your hand? Why not make weak aces pay for calling down with only 4 outs? Why not make mid pockets pay for being donks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you raise, those hands are correct to call. Ax is probably calling down anyway at 2/4.