PFR with TT gets 3-bet and capped behind -- confused!

Knoler · #1 07-30-2005, 12:18 AM

I'm really not thrilled with how I played this hand. The action just left me kind of confused, so I passively called down.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 3-bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB caps, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

MP1 is real solid. SB is a little overaggressive preflop -- but my sample size is small. MP2, MP3, and the button are *terrible*.

With the action behind me, I'm pretty sure I'm way behind, unless MP1 and SB both have AK. However, the pot is huge -- I can expect to get 5 to 1, and I call for set value.

Flop: (29 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Here's where I got really confused. It's hard to fold here, getting 30:1. But, my set outs might be dead, and it's so likely that someone has the A, K, or J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Is this a clear fold? Should I raise, hoping to fold the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] if the A and K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] aren't out?

Turn: (17.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Now I pick up 3 semi-clean gutshot outs. I'm completely stuck in call down mode. I value my hand at around 3 or 4 outs. However, none are completely clean.

Still, it's hard to fold getting 18.5:1.

River: (24.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

I make a weak flush. Since I can call getting 25:1, I call.

Final Pot: 26.50 BB

Advice?
-Brian

Harv72b · #2 07-30-2005, 12:29 AM

I keep looking & looking for a fold in this hand, but I can't find it. If anywhere, it's on the flop, with an overcard coming, SB leading into the field, and a decent chance it gets raised behind you. But still...30:1, and if the raising war continues behind you, then you can muck it.

More & better outs on the turn (although the J appearing likely killed your remaining set outs, if they were good in the first place), and nobody raised the flop (indicating the A or maybe K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]). The delayed raise from MP1 is scary, but what can you do?

If MP1 calls or raises you can fold the river, but not closing the action & getting 25.5:1.

Buckmulligan · #3 07-30-2005, 12:35 AM

I play this the same. Do we fold the flop if it's two back? We certainly fold the turn.

Harv72b · #4 07-30-2005, 12:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I play this the same. Do we fold the flop if it's two back? We certainly fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold the flop if it's two back. That kind of action virtually guarantees that Hero is drawing to (at best) a very shaky two outs. With the possibility of a made flush/higher set already out there, and the virtual certainty in this case that there are redraws even if Hero spikes his T and is best on the turn, the pot odds can pretty much go out the window.

Knoler · #5 07-30-2005, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I play this the same. Do we fold the flop if it's two back? We certainly fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely do. Seeing a bet and raise behind makes it more likely that the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is out there, and makes my set outs even more suspect. Not to mention I wouldn't want to get stuck in a raising war when I might be drawing nearly dead.

-Brian

Paxosmotic · #6 07-30-2005, 12:17 PM

The way the flop played out, how about a raise on a safe turn as our one shot to push the J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] out?

chief444 · #7 07-30-2005, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I keep looking & looking for a fold in this hand, but I can't find it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Me neither.

DeeJ · #8 07-30-2005, 06:30 PM

Gah. Never fold a decent 4-flush here. There's no reason to believe that any of the JKA [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] are out there, certainly not a 90% probability (which you'd need in excess of with such a big pot). I play it the same, I think you win often enough when the heart hits the river.

jba · #9 07-30-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I play this the same. Do we fold the flop if it's two back? We certainly fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. we can, at that point our pot odds are worse and we would need to consider our outs to be much more vulnerable if not dead.

winky51 · #10 07-30-2005, 08:03 PM

FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD. The odds are not enough.

#1 6 callers. Someone hit the flush
#2 his set can make someone else's straight, this is 2/4 mind you.
#3 1:23 for the set IF no one has the flush or can draw out or redraw. Your only getting 1:30 on a super dangerous board with a bunch of callers. ALSO what if the flop is raised. There goes the 1:30 now its 1:15. So.....

Id say the odds are closer to 1:60.