Could you fold a full house?

[jasonHoldEm]

Hi all,

This my first attempt at posting a hand for review. This hand actually ocurred awhile ago, but it brings up an intersting question that I'd like to ask (namely, should you fold a strong hand if you are almost sure that you're beaten). This hand happened in a micro-limit (.25/50) planet game, but it wasn't against typical micro-limit players which is why I'm posting it.

Ok, here goes.

I'm two off the button with KQo, it's folded to me and I raise with the intention of stealing the blinds. CO folds and the button three bets, SB and BB fold. This is interesting because the button is a very strong, very tight player, I've played with him enough to know that he's probablly holding AA, KK, AKs, or (maybe) QQ. I consider folding my hand right there, but I call becuase I'm worried about table image and not being able to blind steal later in the game.

Flop comes: Q, Q, K rainbow.

At this point I can rule out the button holding QQ, and KK is something like a 400:1 chance. I've got him beaten (at the moment) if he's holding AA or AKs. I bet figuring he'll fold if he's holding AKs (with at best a 3 flush, (and two pair), he'll probably put me on a queen and fold)...instead he raises me back and I call.

Turn is a blank

At this point I'm suspecting he has AA (or maybe three of a kind with something like AQs), I don't want to give him a free card (and outdraw me with AA), so I bet, and get raised again. I think about folding (because at this point I'm guessing he might have the longshot KK), but they say if you loose with a full house and you don't loose a lot you played it wrong...so I call.

River is the dreaded ace.

I check with the intention of folding (?, as if he bets I'm almost sure to be beat with either KK or AA), and surprisingly he checks it down.

He turns over KQs (!) and we split the pot.


Questions: Should I have folded preflop to this players strength (I know table image doesn't matter much in the micro limits, but I'm trying to practice for the big leagues). Should I have been more agressive through the hand (i.e. re-raised?) even though I suspected I was beaten.

Thanks in advance,
jason

[CrackerZack]

If you had lost you hadn't nearly lost enough. 3 bet the flop, if you don't, it should be because you are planning on check-raising the turn. ok, you bet the turn, he raised, 3 bet the turn... I'd go at least 4 raises at this point. If he kept coming over the top, and I finally just called, I'd check-call the river, if he just called, I'd bet the river and call if raised. I wouldn't fold this.

[eMarkM]

You've got to be kidding? No, I couldn't fold a full house and I would have bet and raised at every opportunity. I've never seen anyone post a flopped monster like that and play it so timidly.

How could you expect you were beaten at any point in ths hand? Button could 3 bet with a wide array of hands just because you are on a blind steal. I'd 3 bet blind stealer on the button with middle pocket pair. Ok, you say he's tight, but really. KK is the only hand that could beat you or AA on the river. If he had one of those, well, you lose a bunch of money. I wouldn't slow down until the river if the other player kept re-raising at which point I'd have to think, ok, he has AA/KK/KQ.

[marbles]

Welcome aboard.

The best way to deal with this hand is to break down what you put him on. You seem to have a worst-case scenario syndrome; when your opponent showed strength, you immediately put him on monster hands on every street... This is particularly shaky because his hands seem to improve on every street.

Note the streets and the hands you put him on:
Preflop: AA, KK, AKs, or QQ.
Flop: AA, KK, AKs.
Turn: AA, KK
River: AA.

Throughout the hand, the only hands you're worried about are AA and KK (and AA is a good thing until the river), but the likelihood that your opponent holds one of these two hands seems to go up to a near certainty by the river.

In short: Cap the flop, cap the turn, and bet and call one raise on the river. Folding this hand at any point is insane.

[nicky g]

You're seeing monsters under the bed - you should ahve been far more agressive. Even if the player is tight in this kind of situation it's madness to put him on only a huge hand - he's protecting his blind against what looks llike a steal.
Folding at the end would be insane - you don't make your money in limit poker by making big laydowns with decent hands for a single bet on the end. so many people don't seem to realise this, i'm astounded. why he checked the river, i have no idea - he must be the worst player in the world.

[Mike Gallo]

Jason,

You played the hand very weak. You should have reraised the flop the turn and bet the river.

I do not think I would ever fold a boat in your spot.

Best Wishes,
mg

[anatta]

A very strong player, even one who is very tight, will have a larger range of 3 -betting hands than you described when on the button vs. what is likely a steal raise. If your opponent really only 3-bets with premium hands here, he is giving up a lot, and is unlikely what I would call a strong player. From the results, it seems his range is wider, consider putting him on something like 99, KQo or higher, and consider yourself way ahead with a flop like this.

[JTG51]

I agree with everyone else. Folding at any point would have been a disaster, and you should have played it more aggressively.

This is interesting because the button is a very strong, very tight player, I've played with him enough to know that he's probablly holding AA, KK, AKs, or (maybe) QQ.

A very stong player on the button doesn't need nearly as big a hand as you thought to 3 bet an open raise from late position. If you had raised from UTG you might be right to put him on the range of hands you did, but with you open raising from LP he's most likely going to put you on a steal. His 3-betting standards would, and should, be much lower in that case.

I bet figuring he'll fold if he's holding AKs (with at best a 3 flush, (and two pair), he'll probably put me on a queen and fold)...

First notice that you really, really don't want AK to fold. He'd be drawing almost dead with that hand. If you really thought he'd fold AK to a single flop bet, you shouldn't bet. More importantly though, there's no way anyone would fold AK on that flop for a single bet unless your play is so weak that you will only bet trips or better. I can't imagine that's true. If it is, you will have a very hard time beating players who are paying any attention. Would you ever play KJ, KT, JT, JJ, TT etc in a similar way? If you never would, you probably need to do some work to mix up your play a bit.

[Nottom]

All I can say is that you sound awfully weak-tight in your analysis of this hand.

First you consider folding a decent hand that you raised with to a preflop re-raise that you are getting 6-1 odds to call. You have to call here ... if he is indeed a good player he may think you are going for a blind steal and could be raising with just about any decent hand to isolate you.

Secondly, after the flop you hit the 2nd nuts and are still terrified of his hand. Here you should be trying to figure out how to get the most $$$ in the pot. His raise can mean all sorts of things (as a side note, if he folds AK to a bet than he is NOT a good player IMO, unless he thinks you are a super-tighty). Calling here is good, no reason to try and scare him off.

On the turn, you need to bet out since this is round where the money is made ... You want him to pay you off if he holds something like AQ, AK, QJ, JT, or AA. I would re-raise it here for sure. The odds of him having the KK to beat you are so slim you just can't let it bother you. If he caps it, then you can slow down on the river if you want.

River: Well its not a card you want to see, but if its scary to you, maybe its scary to him as well. I'd go ahead and bet ... there are still plenty of hands that will call you that you can beat. If you are raised go ahead and call and hope for the best.

Than again, I like to bet a lot.

[Nottom]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
why he checked the river, i have no idea - he must be the worst player in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with this ... he has no reason to think you have a hand here, you have cowered away every time he bets back at you and he holds a monster. Very bad check on his part here.