88 in SB, 994 flop

#1 07-28-2005, 01:35 AM

2/4 Party

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 1 folds, MP1 reraises, 4 folds, Hero calls, 1 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.
I wasn't sure about this. I think this call might have been a bit loose.

Flop: (13 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero's action
Is this worth fighting for?

PS. Is the converter broken?

Klepton · #2 07-28-2005, 01:39 AM

the call in the SB was ok as long as you were only playing it for set value, and are able to fold a flop as favorable as 994

if you believe MP1 could re-raise without a pair higher than yours, then you have to c/r this flop and evaluate what happens.

DrewOnTilt · #3 07-28-2005, 01:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2/4 Party

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 1 folds, MP1 reraises, 4 folds, Hero calls, 1 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.
I wasn't sure about this. I think this call might have been a bit loose.

Flop: (13 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero's action
Is this worth fighting for?

PS. Is the converter broken?

[/ QUOTE ]

Delete the word "Texas" from the phrase "Texas Hold Em" at the top of the hand history, and the converter should work.

Unless you have specific reads that both of these players are loose raisers, 88 is a clear fold preflop. Even if both raisers are loose raisers, I'm laying this down 90% of the time.

As you found out the hard way, it is hard to determine exactly where you stand postflop with a mediocre pair against 2 maniacs. Were these guys maniacs, or did you just peek at your cards and think, "Oh, I have a pair!"

Postflop, I would probably peel one off and see what happens on 4th street. If an Ace or King hits, I'm gone.

Chubbers · #4 07-28-2005, 01:43 AM

I'd have folded pre-flop.

#5 07-28-2005, 03:06 AM

Thanks for the converter advice. I c/r'ed thinking this pot was worth fighting for. No one backed off, so I check/fold the turn.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

AVF2k1 · #6 07-28-2005, 03:21 AM

I'd have to agree that this is a clear pre flop fold. I probably would have folded pre flop even if there were no 3-bet, depending on how many had called.

Post flop I would probably check fold. You are drawing to two outs, I doubt you have the best hand at the moment. The pot is laying you 14:1 and there may be a check raise from UTG. I would fold.

/Oscar

Bodhi · #7 07-28-2005, 03:31 AM

Reread SSHE, this is an obvious preflop muck. You will see people make this call frequently, even some players who are otherwise tight, but they are all incorrect. Fold.

Piiop · #8 07-28-2005, 04:18 AM

I think preflop is fine, and I think Klepton's post in this thread is perfect. Next time, try to include reads.

Since you decided to play past the flop, the checkraise was correct and so was the turn fold.

Mjonasson · #9 07-28-2005, 05:05 AM

Many people say the preflop call is too loose and the check/fold on flop is ok. Let's add some scenarios to see if and how the replies changes.

Could we change it to a call or maybe even a raise and what about the flop?

Question:
The flop and preflop action is still the same: what would you do given these scenarios?

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Scenario 1
UTG is a taggish person with 19%VP$IP and 11%pfr.
UTG+1 is neutral.
MP1 is a loose-passive fish with about 40%VP$IP and 23% pfr.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Scenario 2
UTG is a loose fish with about 40%VP$IP and 23% pfr.
UTG+1 is neutral.
MP1 is a taggish person with 19%VP$IP and 11%pfr.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Scenario 3
All three players are unknown, but UTG is now sitting in MP1 and MP1 on the Button.

Bonus
What does it take to make this preflop call ok and what does it take to make the flop a check/raise(board stays the same)?

edit: Just realised there were 4 people seeing the flop, not three, making this scenarios less interesting maybe? Guess I'm a bit tired

//Mjonasson

#10 07-28-2005, 05:12 AM

The only read I had was that UTG+1 was willing to call anything PF, and was passive postflop. Unfortunately, no read on the two PFRers.