Black Kings gaybet on a scare card

[kurosh]

Hypothetical situation. 5/10 or above 6-handed. TAG UTG raises. You 3-bet black kings on the button. Everyone folds and he calls.

Flop is 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Check bet call.

Turn is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He bets. What's your move?

Different situation: He raises your flop bet, you 3-bet and he gaybets the turn. What if he raises, you call and then he bets the turn?

I'm thinking raise all of them but the first one is close between raise and fold.

[GetThere1Time]

I raise the turn, take a free showdown, and fold to a 3-bet in the first situation. The donk bet reaks of K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and is rarely an ace IMO. Same with situation 2.

You're right though, hand 1 is interesting since its a TAG donkbetting. The action is too weird to not see a showdown though and if you're going to do that then a turn raise is the way to go. Plus he might fold worse hands that are drawing live against your black kings like 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[bds]

I don't understand why raise is a good choice here. He raised UTG preflop. An A comes on the turn and it completes what could be a flush draw. He donk bets. Often enough, that is an ace afraid that you will check the turn since it completes a flush draw. I call it down but don't raise here. Please explain why raising is a good move. Seems to me that when you are behind, you will lose more and when you are ahead you will win less. If you raise, do you fold to a 3 bet?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise, do you fold to a 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

instantly

[bds]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you raise, do you fold to a 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

instantly

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why raise? You can call the turn and the river and get to showdown at the same price you'd pay for raising the turn. The only advantage I see of a turn raise is that maybe someone with a hand inferior to KK will fold here to your raise, but I don't see that happening often. I think you are usually going to lose this hand, but I'd rather check call both streets and see a showdown than raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet. Can someone show me please the error of my ways?

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Then why raise? You can call the turn and the river and get to showdown at the same price you'd pay for raising the turn. The only advantage I see of a turn raise is that maybe someone with a hand inferior to KK will fold here to your raise, but I don't see that happening often. I think you are usually going to lose this hand, but I'd rather check call both streets and see a showdown than raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet. Can someone show me please the error of my ways?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you on this against TAG opponents. Against LAGs who have shown themselves to be bluff prone and who will call down with a pocket pair or part of the board, I think you can raise for value. But raising against a smart opponent makes you win less when you're ahead, and lose more when you're behind.

I'd vote for either folding or calling down, depending on who the opponent is.

Two recent comments I've read come to mind. (1) Sfer wrote that he hates the raise-fold-to-three-bet line as a resteal. This isn't a perfect resteal situation (since it was never a steal to begin with), but generally I think the raise-fold-to-three-bet line is one I hate to bring out, since in a HU situation, you can get a showdown for the same price.

(2) Sthief09 commented in passing that in 10/20SH, one of the keys to the game was in getting to showdown, and avoiding tough decisions on 4th street. I think he said this in the context of why sometimes it makes sense to check on 4th street, rather than bet and show continued aggression the way you would in a 5/10SH game. Again, the situation here isn't the same since you're reacting to a bet on a scare card, but I think the principle is similar. If you start raising in these situations, against unpredictable opponents (for instance who might 3-bet you on the nut flush draw), you can overcomplicate your post-flop decisionmaking.

Im not advocating taking a passive check-call approach in every situation, but I do think that passivity against tricky opponents is underrated.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you raise, do you fold to a 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

instantly

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why raise? You can call the turn and the river and get to showdown at the same price you'd pay for raising the turn. The only advantage I see of a turn raise is that maybe someone with a hand inferior to KK will fold here to your raise, but I don't see that happening often. I think you are usually going to lose this hand, but I'd rather check call both streets and see a showdown than raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet. Can someone show me please the error of my ways?

[/ QUOTE ]

All I said was that I'd fold to the 3-bet. I doubt I'm raising this turn, and would probably fold unless I had a read on villain as a sneaky SOB.

[bds]

[ QUOTE ]


All I said was that I'd fold to the 3-bet. I doubt I'm raising this turn, and would probably fold unless I had a read on villain as a sneaky SOB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you weren't advocating raising. I'm just trying to better understand the camp that favors raising here, because I can't figure out why I'd want to.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


All I said was that I'd fold to the 3-bet. I doubt I'm raising this turn, and would probably fold unless I had a read on villain as a sneaky SOB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you weren't advocating raising. I'm just trying to better understand the camp that favors raising here, because I can't figure out why I'd want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is opponent specific and requires a good read. Some players will think as follows "Well, I have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here. This dude might be scared of that Ace, so I'm gonna bet. It might win me the pot right now. If he has an ace he may raise me, but that's OK cuz I have outs to the 2nd nuts." It is these kind of opponents where a raise makes sense, as you are now charging them to draw.

[bds]

[ QUOTE ]


I think it is opponent specific and requires a good read. Some players will think as follows "Well, I have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here. This dude might be scared of that Ace, so I'm gonna bet. It might win me the pot right now. If he has an ace he may raise me, but that's OK cuz I have outs to the 2nd nuts." It is these kind of opponents where a raise makes sense, as you are now charging them to draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I think my problem is I seldom seem to have a solid enough read to make this play. My reads is something I'm working on trying to improve.