should I raise with these in a 10-player game?

[lemuri]

I've been playing no lim for about 3 years and just started playing a little lim ring for fun (2/4 & 3/6). Still getting used to not being able to bet out the ace-rags/k-rags preflop

So, at a 10-player 2/4 tbl with roughly 4-5 callers guaranteed, im getting my ass handed to me with JJ, AK and AQ.

Question, if there are 5+ limpers in already, does it make any sense to raise from late position (or even the blinds) with AK, JJ, or QQ? Given I know everyone is going to call the raise anyway, it seems pointless.

Does it make sense only to raise with KK and AA when there are going to be 4-5 callers out there... and limp with the other starting hands? Seems like I only make money overall limping with suted cons and ace-rag suted + small pps, and raising with KK + AA. Queens are iffy and AK/AQ/JJ are killin me -- in these pots with many callers i mean. Especially when I get top pr/top kick with AK or hit a flop like QT8 with JJ

My bankroll is fine and im not losing money overall, but this is a leak I'd like to plug. Shorthanded play I do well

[PatJ]

Give 'Small Stakes Hold-em Winning Big With Expert Play' by Ed Miller a read. With no limit experience it will give you the answers to this question and others you haven't articulated yet.

The answer, though, is yes - it is a matter of pot equity. When you raise with the best hand preflop and 6 people call you, are making money even if you lose the majority of the time. With 6 callers you are putting in 1/7 of the money, about 14.3% If you expect to win more than that percentage of the time you should bet and raise and cross your fingers and hope. If you win, fatastic. If you lose, smile, shake your head, and move on to the next hand where you will continue to make these risky but still positive EV moves.

[jrbick]

[ QUOTE ]
Question, if there are 5+ limpers in already, does it make any sense to raise from late position (or even the blinds) with AK, JJ, or QQ? Given I know everyone is going to call the raise anyway, it seems pointless.

Does it make sense only to raise with KK and AA when there are going to be 4-5 callers out there...

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the forum.

The reason why you need to raise hands like these (ESPECIALLY from late position) is for VALUE. The reason why this is particularly good from late position in a Limit game is because MOST (if not ALL) of those limpers in front are calling 1 more bet. Most of your premium pairs/top pairs will (should) hold up about on average about 44% of the time (link) after 20k hands so they are profitable. You'll get used to the bad beats after a while.

Keep asking LOTS of questions, do some reading (books and archives here). This link should get you started.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
Question, if there are 5+ limpers in already, does it make any sense to raise from late position (or even the blinds) with AK, JJ, or QQ? Given I know everyone is going to call the raise anyway, it seems pointless.


[/ QUOTE ]

Getting more money into the pot when you have the best of it is never a bad thing. In the situation you describe - being late to act with a premium hand - you are going to win your fair share, so get the money in. Raise, raise, raise...limit poker is all about betting for value.

[ QUOTE ]
Does it make sense only to raise with KK and AA when there are going to be 4-5 callers out there... and limp with the other starting hands? Seems like I only make money overall limping with suted cons and ace-rag suted + small pps, and raising with KK + AA. Queens are iffy and AK/AQ/JJ are killin me -- in these pots with many callers i mean. Especially when I get top pr/top kick with AK or hit a flop like QT8 with JJ


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'll find that most people here raisewith much less than KK and AA, especially in late position. Many advise to raise pre-flop in late position with medium pocket pairs and suited connectors in multi-way pots - it's a minimal investment in what will be a big pot, guaranteeing you better drawing odds than if you had not raised.

I think you may be suffering from small sample size in the limit game. Give it time and post your questionable and interesting hands here for some guidance.

[lemuri]

Thanks ALL for the quick and excellent responses. I definitely need to revisit the SSHE books, as much of that theory has been washed away by no-lim play. I do feel better now tho, knowing that if the JJ wins 1 out of 4 times (ish) against a 5-player field then that'll make up for the investments. I still need to learn to call river bets when there are scare cards - i think im giving up too easily.

That archive link is now in the favorites list [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Thank you

You're right too, my sample size is very small for lim. Quite a different world than no-lim!

Thanks again - this forum rocks