Fold pocket queens?!

MATT111 · #1 07-22-2005, 03:24 PM

No reads. Pretty tight table in general. Was I right to fold here. Any thoughts welcome.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 7 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

davelin · #2 07-22-2005, 03:25 PM

Why call the flop if you're going to fold the turn?

droolie · #3 07-22-2005, 03:26 PM

Why raise the flop?

MATT111 · #4 07-22-2005, 03:36 PM

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Why call the flop if you're going to fold the turn?

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Ok. you`re right. I then thought there is a small chance he`ll show weakness by the turn.

MATT111 · #5 07-22-2005, 03:38 PM

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Why raise the flop?

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Would you have folded to a turn bet. If reraised I think I can be certain enough I am beat and it is cheaper than calling down.

Aaron W. · #6 07-22-2005, 03:41 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the flop?

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Would you have folded to a turn bet. If reraised I think I can be certain enough I am beat and it is cheaper than calling down.

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But if you know you're beat when re-raised, why did you make that call?

MATT111 · #7 07-22-2005, 03:45 PM

That`s right. Should have saved 1 SB here.

droolie · #8 07-22-2005, 03:45 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the flop?

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Would you have folded to a turn bet. If reraised I think I can be certain enough I am beat and it is cheaper than calling down.

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No. I would not have raised the flop either. You were HU and had nothing to gain and a pot to lose by letting him play back at you.

You are in a classic way ahead/ way behind scenario here. Raising this flop will cause you to fold a better hand sometimes when you are up against a LAG or will cause a tight player to fold a hand he would have kept betting into you. You win the minimum lose the max. I would just call it down and bet if checked to. If you hit your Q raise.

The only advantage to raising the flop is that you save some bets when you are behind. HU you need to have a damn good read in order to reliably know you are behind though.

MrStretchie · #9 07-22-2005, 03:48 PM

Because he's getting 15:1 plus huge implied odds to spike a set. He can expect at least 3 BB payoff if he hits. So it's almost EV neutral. Add in a small chance of a free card or backdoor straight, plus meta-game considerations, and it's worth a call.

Aaron W. · #10 07-22-2005, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No reads. Pretty tight table in general. Was I right to fold here. Any thoughts welcome.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 7 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

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Some players here would advocate call-call-call to extract the most when you're ahead and lose the least when you're behind. However, I would sometimes play this spot almost like you did (except I fold to the 3-bet).

The call-call-call line is for villains who are aggressive enough to keep betting a worse hand than yours. Against the relatively unknown UTG capper, I don't think you're going to see AQ, JJ, and TT continue betting enough to make this hand worth showing down. I would like to find out right away if my hand is good.

I would call-call-call if I had a backdoor draw that could bail me out in the end, because that adds a little to the value to getting past the flop. Drawing two inside cards isn't enough, but if it were KJ2, call-call-call is better, because your equity jumps if you catch a ten on the turn, and it goes up a little if you catch an ace or ten on the turn. These three good cards makes seeing the turn more valuable. The backdoor flush draw works the same way.