A routine fold?

Eeegah · #1 07-22-2005, 02:54 AM

Reads: This table has been one of the most aggressive I've seen at Stars .25/.50. At least as far as preflop is concerned--action seems to slow down postflop, but the table still has maybe three LAGs and a borderline. The first seven hands I saw were raised preflop, but it had quieted down the last orbit or two.

MP2 is that worst kind of player, a tricky fish. He'll often checkraise any street, and will limp premium hands like AA. He has no concept of hand protection, however. I think he's a LPP with aspirations of becoming a LAG--he's been much more aggressive this session than his AF of .71 indicates.

MP3 is rather less dynamic, but is still a LAG. He's raised with things as low as K9o.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, 3 folds, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 raises, BB folds, Hero folds...

My intention was to checkraise here, both to force out MP2 and because MP3 has flat out folded to a checkraise before. Unfortunately it's bet and raised, and frankly I don't like the prospects of carrying a top pair marginal kicker to the river, especially when I'm not closing the betting and the PFR still thinks he's ahead. If I need to improve, I don't have odds to draw to two pair or a set even if it's not raised behind. Am I right to fold this?

Aaron W. · #2 07-22-2005, 03:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Reads: This table has been one of the most aggressive I've seen at Stars .25/.50. At least as far as preflop is concerned--action seems to slow down postflop, but the table still has maybe three LAGs and a borderline. The first seven hands I saw were raised preflop, but it had quieted down the last orbit or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are reasons to fold JTs UTG+1.

eviljeff · #3 07-22-2005, 03:45 AM

well I've been thinking about this for a full minute, so it's not routine to me. I'm mostly concerned about mp3. how often will he raise here with less than tp? if it's 25% or more I think we can 3bet.

Bodhi · #4 07-22-2005, 03:48 AM

I don't think you have the right position to check-raise. Just bet the flop. When you bet the flop, MP2 might slow down, and MP3 may hate it when you bet into him. As for the reads you gave, why did you decide you were beat?

Stop folding so much.

[ QUOTE ]
My intention was to checkraise here, both to force out MP2 and because MP3 has flat out folded to a checkraise before.

[/ QUOTE ]

That means he was bluffing, not that he was able to fold a strong hand he thought was beat. Here MP3 is not going to fold OC's to a checkraise in a raised pot (assuming things went as you planned).

Bodhi · #5 07-22-2005, 03:50 AM

Yeah, but if the table's loose enough, which it is, JTs utg is fine. It's not like he's going to get isolated by a raise from UTG+1 or something.

Eeegah · #6 07-22-2005, 03:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why did you decide you were beat

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How often do you think we're ahead?

Bodhi · #7 07-22-2005, 04:07 AM

I don't know, it's more difficult to tell since you didn't bet. You're ahead often enough to peel one off here. MP2 could be betting a flush-draw, MP3 could be raising AK with the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], MP2 could even have a J with a worse kicker... who knows? If you said the two were half-way decent I would fold, but they're not.

closer2313 · #8 07-22-2005, 04:07 AM

Wouldn't it be a good idea to 3 bet just to get the Lag headsup?

MP1 could be betting a 7 here, the lag could have ace high, you have top pair with an above avg kicker vs 2 donks. I vote for a 3 bet.

closer2313 · #9 07-22-2005, 04:14 AM

Also a good post I found that deals with this type of situation is here

I have the same problem. I hate flopping just top pair but with a weakish kicker. My first instinct is to just throw my hand away unless the pot is absolutely huge. I've been learning (and yelled at) that this is a big error.

[ QUOTE ]

5. Folding top pair-no kicker at any sign of resistance on the flop.

All holdem literature admonishes new players to beware of kicker problems. For good reason. Its good to keep people away from the Ax hands that most new players love. But once you do see the flop with your big-little combo (Axs, or something like Kx from the BB), the pots are so big in these LL games that unless the Rock of Gibralter starts raising, you must proceed as if your top pair is the boss and play accordingly. Too many people will play middle pair aggressively, , jam their flush draws, even raise with bottom pair and a gutshot, and too many fish will chase even the longest of shots. Punish them and see what happens on the river when the smoke clears. This doesn’t mean to blindly play til the "bitter end", but it does mean that you shouldn’t be so ready to assume that you aren’t in the lead. I get the impression that many new players would rather flop bottom pair than top pair/no kicker, and that’s simply wrong.

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@bsolute_luck · #10 07-22-2005, 05:42 AM

if you're gonna play that hand on a table that is sorta aggressive with LAGs from that position...well any position really, then you better come prepared to put your money in the middle.

by checking a flop where you hold top pair, you open yourself up to a world of questions. you can be less concerned on these tables about playing sneaky- the LAGs will raise anyways without thought or care to what you have and sometimes to even what they have.

bet out. let the LAGs do what LAGs do best.

that said, i'd have at least called to see the turn based on your reads.