Gunshy, cautious, running scared or the right play?

[ElSapo]

After a real beating a week ago I've seen myself get a little gunshy at the table. But last night started with an amazing run of cards and in about 45 minutes I'd doubled my buy in. Playing spread 50¢-$2, dealers choice. A few loose players and maybe one tight, agressive one.

Most the games we play are standard Omaha/8, Hold'em, 7-stud, but once in a while someone deals this monster where you hold 5 cards in your hand and two rows of five are flopped, same as hold'em or omaha. You can use 2 from your hand, or all 5, but not 1, 3 or 4. Game is hi-lo, and if I never play it again that's too soon for me.

I hold something like QKK57, a couple are suited but in this game a full house almost always wins it. Flop comes in one row 8-8-5 and in the other A-K-9. Betting starts two to my left, it goes something like check-bet-call-raise-call and it gets to me. I've got trip kings right now which may be good if the board pairs but with the bets, calls and raises I've got to suspect A-A out there and maybe a made full house on the other board.

I think it over and muck. It gets capped after that and I'm feeling pretty good that I got out.

Long story short, the full house comes in on the King-board and two more fives to boot on the second one, meaning I had four fives for the lock high with no low. It was a monster pot for this game.

Anyways, everyone thought a five would win it and when no one had it I checked the cards I had tossed in and flipped the five and the kings. And was pretty much berated for folding. So I can't decide if I made the right play.

I mean, betting was capped on the flop and fourth street. I figured I had to be behind. And even if I'd seen fourth street I've still got nothing since neither monster hand came in until the river.

The bunch of guys who stayed in were shocked I got out, but with people looking at, on the flop, 11 cards and it's capped I figure trip Kings is behind (forget the final, flukey five coming in).

Am I playing this too cautious, do I need a better read on what people are betting, or is this just decent tight play and I ended up folding the winner?

Maybe the real solution is not showing what you fold...

Thanks for any comments...

[beernutz]

That's a tough one all right. I'd be most worried about the AAA but would probably call the two cold anyway just because of the potential size of the pot when the turn card hits which will be around 16 sb assuming first checker doesn't call also and that first better doesn't reraise.

I wonder if 3 betting here is a better option that flat calling or folding? If someone caps then I would strongly suspect that the AAA or a made boat is out there and hopefully could use that to help me play if the turn pairs the AK9 board. It might even get you a free card on the turn if you didn' t fill up.

That game would give me a major headache though.

[iblucky4u2]

Actually, I think you made a good fold, even in a loose game. The hand I would be most worried about is not AA but 88! Once a pair hits you have every right to fold. Thsese kind of games normally require the nuts and kings full is only about the third nut. What about any str8 flush possibiliites with a matching 8 & 5 on the board? Just MHO.

[ElSapo]

Thanks... I was just checking, but to be honest I was pretty comfortable with the fold - - much less so with people telling me how to play the hand, though I expect that's just something I need to get used to.

Despite layng down what turned into the top two high hands, there was no way to know it until the river and the action was pretty intense the whole way. Beyond that, I think I said in the original post it's played for hi-lo and so there's a chance I'll just be playing for half that pot anyways.

I'm all for a gamble now and then, but this didn't look like the spot for it regardless of how it turned out. I made a couple of real mistaks that night, but I'm not chalking this one as one of them.

[Buzz]

El Sapo - "you hold 5 cards in your hand and two rows of five are flopped, same as hold'em or omaha. You can use 2 from your hand, or all 5, but not 1, 3 or 4. Game is hi-lo... I hold something like QKK57.... in this game a full house almost always wins it. "

When someone deals a game I don't much like, I play very tightly and give as little action as possible unless I have an extremely strong hand.

But even if you liked this game, I think you should fold this hand before the flop, assuming you are not in the unraised big blind. No four of your cards make a decent Omaha-8 starting hand. And you don't even have an ace.

Since you hate the game, don't see the flop unless all five of your starting cards are working working together.

"Flop comes in one row 8-8-5 and in the other A-K-9.

I've got trip kings right now which may be good if the board pairs but with the bets, calls and raises I've got to suspect A-A out there and maybe a made full house on the other board."

Do you have five opponents? In that case, considering your cards and the cards on the two boards, I think roughly one time out of six, one of your five opponents will have been dealt a pair of aces and/or will make quad eights for a high which will beat you even if the board with the king pairs. Could be someone has a pair of aces, but more likely (with much action) they're spread around.

Low is likely on the 885 board and not out of the question on the AK9 board. In addition, being dealt five low cards, eight or better is not particularly unusual. Your 57 will probably not be good enough for low, if there is a low. Thus you have to figure you're probably only going for half the pot, that you have to make a full house to win, and that even when you make your full house, you'll lose to a better high about one time out of six. And on top of it all you're facing a double bet.

Your best play seems to be to fold.

Just my opinion.

"Maybe the real solution is not showing what you fold..."

You probably shouldn't ever show anything when nobody calls, but the plain truth is part of the fun of playing with your friends is showing cards and talking about hands. Even so, although showing the five seems all right, I think you gave away too much information about how you play when you let your oponents know you folded a pair of kings.

Buzz

[beetman]

In case none of the other replies made this clear--with a bunch of action, your hand wouldn't be all that good if you were playing in a game with just the AK9 board--but in this case there's an entire other flop!

Also your hand is crap preflop if you're not in the unraised big blind. KKQ7 or KKQ5 wouldn't be very good hands in regular O/8 (ok to complete the small blind with, or perhaps in good position against a bunch of awful players, but that's it), so KKQ75 is crap in 5 card Omaha with 2 flops.