KQs in a large pot

[Lavarn]

Hello, this is my first post on this forum. I thought you guys might be able to help me with a concept that I'm struggling with. One of the ideas from small stakes holdem that I'm having difficulty accepting is that you should be more aggressive in large pots. I agree that it counts a lot more when you win a large pot, but I think that when the pot gets large, that is good reason to suspect someone has made a monster hand. Anyway, I feel like I am losing a lot of money trying to win large pots with marginal hands. Here's an example where I feel I may have gotten a bit too aggressive:

Table was playing pretty loose compared to normal - about 5-6 people per flop.
Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Preflop: (9 handed)
UTG calls, Hero calls, 3 more people limp in behind, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 handed)
SB bets out, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls, the 3 other people call behind

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 handed)
SB checks this time, UTG bets, Hero raises, someone in MP cold-calls but the other two guys fold. SB folds as well, UTG calls

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 handed)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP raises, UTG cold-calls, Hero overcalls

Ok, now before I get flamed too hard, I want to say that I think my first mistake was not raising preflop. But given that I did not raise preflop, how do you think I played the rest of the hand?

[shadow29]

PF-You have a great hand that has a tremendous equity edge over your donkish opponents. Raise pre-flop to maximize your edge and to punish weak and loose players.

For post-flop play, I'll do more of a Socratic style.

Flop- How many outs do you think you have here?

edit- someone else take over the dialogue, i have to run.

[DeathDonkey]

Other than the preflop, which you acknowledged, the rest looks ok. The thing to keep in mind on the flop is that you might not have as many outs as you think...reverse domination, drawing thin to 2 pr etc. are always possible, plus someone could raise behind you and you would hate that. I think given you misplayed the preflop the flop is a fold.

After that the rest is pretty good, in general I don't expect to win like ever when raised on the end, but its a big pot as you said and your calling one more closing the action. It would be a much worse mistake to fold the winner so pay it off.

-DeathDonkey

ps: I've read 2 posts of yours and I already think your going to be a big winner at this game. Welcome to the forums.

[aces_dad]

If the K and Q are clean outs they are 3 each and backdoor straight and flush draws may be worth one more each, giving around 8 outs on the flop. The overs may be worth slightly less, so around 7 outs on the flop.

It is helpful to count the pot size vs the odds when making the flop call. Do you have the odds to draw to a 7:1?

Edit: I meant to say do the odds support calling to 7 outs, you have to figure out what the odds are based upon probable outs.

[Bodhi]

The funny thing is that if you had raised preflop you would have better pot-odds on the flop to peel one off. As it is I think you played this fine except for the preflop action. Not raising here is probably costs more $ than playing something like J4s.

[Fantam]

First I think limping from early position preflop is fine, because KQs plays well in a multiway pot. Raising is fine also so the choice is yours. In fact limping from UTG on a loose table but raising on a tight table would make sense to me.

Secondly I dont think that you were over agressive in your play of this hand. I think you were correct to raise the turn and value bet the river with TPGK.

MP's river raise was unexpected and perhaps he drew out with an unlikely straight or 2 pair, but I think that you were correct to call in what had become a large pot.

So overall I think that you played your hand fine.

[BluEsiNsOuL]

[ QUOTE ]
First I think limping from early position preflop is fine, because KQs plays well in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

AKs also plays well in a multiway pot, do you think limping it is fine too?

[Fantam]

AKs is obviously a raising hand from any position and is a much stronger hand than KQs.

Perhaps if you are playing against terrible loose opponents who are happy to cold call preflop with many hands, you may as well raise preflop with KQs also.

However if you are playing against reasonable opponents, then I think sometimes limping from early position with KQs is ok.

[Sir Bruce]

Raise this preflop. KQs will win far more than it's fair share of pots and with loose players who will cold-call, this is an easy raise.

I'm torn about the flop, I think it's either a fold or a call. SSHE talks about playing your overcards as weak draws, and on this ragged flop, you can count them as maybe 3.5 or 4 outs. With 9 bets in the pot, you're not quite getting odds for this call, but it may be ok if others call behind. It would be terrible if they raised though.

Turn is good. You made your hand but are still vulnerable, classic protection raise.

River is interesting. The bet is good, and I think you have to call for one back to you given the size of the pot. You're getting 17.5 to 1 (if I added up right), and you'll win far more often than that. The action is scary enough not to 3-bet though.

[eviljeff]

definitely raise this preflop.

the rest of the play is standard.

on the river go ahead and call one more. most likely some moron shows you T8 or J9, but I think you win often enough to make this call +EV.