Am I on a draw or is this a made hand?

Cosimo · #1 07-18-2005, 01:39 PM

TP, weak kicker, nut flush draw. The bet is to my immediate right. Do I raise, with the high probability of getting it heads up, or call to try to keep the blinds in?

UB .5-1, table flop % is about 35% (that's not VPIP, that's total flop %). Villain in this hand has been kinda loose; any ace or high cards, but not medium connectors. I don't think any of these players understand position (except that they should bet from the back if it's checked to them).

I'd like to raise this, but Villain is to my immediate right. If a UB player is tight, he's weak-tight. If I face the blinds with two bets, they're really only going to call if they've got an inside straight draw or two pair, both of which are unlikely. If villain does have an ace, he's going to call down if I reraise him here, and then I have to worry about him having a bigger ace or a weaker ace -- when 1/3rd of the weaker aces beat me, too.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Villain bets, Hero ...

I normally call hands like this, and it's one reason why I'm TA-N instead of TA-A. Raise it?

Aaron W. · #2 07-18-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TP, weak kicker, nut flush draw. The bet is to my immediate right. Do I raise, with the high probability of getting it heads up, or call to try to keep the blinds in?

UB .5-1, table flop % is about 35% (that's not VPIP, that's total flop %). Villain in this hand has been kinda loose; any ace or high cards, but not medium connectors. I don't think any of these players understand position (except that they should bet from the back if it's checked to them).

I'd like to raise this, but Villain is to my immediate right. If a UB player is tight, he's weak-tight. If I face the blinds with two bets, they're really only going to call if they've got an inside straight draw or two pair, both of which are unlikely. If villain does have an ace, he's going to call down if I reraise him here, and then I have to worry about him having a bigger ace or a weaker ace -- when 1/3rd of the weaker aces beat me, too.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Villain bets, Hero ...

I normally call hands like this, and it's one reason why I'm TA-N instead of TA-A. Raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are on both a draw and a made hand. That means you want to raise it up. You win when players fold out because you increase the chances of winning the pot unimproved. And you win when players call because you've got them paying two bets for a hand that's probably worse than yours, but even if it isn't it's worse than your draw. Keeping customers when you hold top pair is often a mistake.

PS - You can raise this preflop.

aces_dad · #3 07-18-2005, 01:48 PM

You have a strong draw with a weak made hand. I like the raise here as you may have the best hand (no PF raise from lop better), good equity into multiway pot and the raise may also get the turn checked to you.

Sir Bruce · #4 07-18-2005, 01:53 PM

I'd strongly consider raising this preflop.

You should raise the flop. You've got a very strong draw, and a strong made hand. Your equity is huge and should raise.

CanadianAmy · #5 07-18-2005, 02:01 PM

I count 15 outs to improve on your hand. I would riase here and then keep raising, I would even raise the turn if you don't get one of your outs. But I would not raise the river, I would check/call the river if you don't improve (provided that the turn and river cards are not scary).

I wouldn't raise this hand preflop from middle position with only one player calling so far (If I was in late position and there were 5 callers I would raise, or if I was in late position and there was only one caller I would also raise).

Amy

Fantam · #6 07-18-2005, 02:14 PM

When it is your turn to act on the flop the pot is small with only 5 sb in it. So I would just call the flop bet and hope that SB and BB stay in to help pad the pot for the times you make your nut flush.

If there had been say a lot of preflop raises and the pot had been a lot bigger, then I may have started to become more interested in trying to protect my hand with a flop raise.

@bsolute_luck · #7 07-18-2005, 02:51 PM

i'm wondering why people are suggesting to raise this flop? win UI- what do you think Villain has? and why do we want to fold out SB and BB when they're drawing thin already? oh and the pot is small- why be aggressive at this point? if Villain is bluffing an Ace- why fight? if he's on a flush draw, ummm...we would have the nuts anyways.

and if he has the Ace, you're looking at probably 2 pair or at least higher kicker.

shadow29 · #8 07-18-2005, 03:40 PM

You've gotten some good strategic advice already. But let me add this:

Ed Miller writes in Small Stakes Hold 'Em (page 131):

[ QUOTE ]

The distinction between a drawing hand and a made hand is arbitrary. Almost all "made" hands have some potential to improve. Likewise, many "drawing" hands have some value as made hands, even if their value is only king-high. A few hands, such as a pair and a flush or straight draw, have characteristics of both. Some players put far too much emphasis on the difference; for example, they may refuse to play any "drawing" hand aggressively because they are still "on the come." Anyone who advises you to play drawing hands and made hands differently, based soley on that distinction, should be ignored. Strategically the division is meaningless. What matters is how often your hand will win at the showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

edit- fwiw, I don't raise the flop.

Cosimo · #9 07-18-2005, 06:41 PM

The primary suggestion seems to be "raise preflop." Thanks for the input.

Results: 8 fell on the turn, bet/raise/call, check/bet/call, MHIG vs A7o.

DCWildcat · #10 07-18-2005, 06:46 PM

I'd raise the flop. Try and knock out the crappier Ax's chances to make aces up, and make a worse A pay for trying.