Waiting until the river.

[Huh]

$4-$8 online game. One of the most passive pre-flop games I have seen in a while. Lots of open limping from middle position.

I'm in middle position and pick up

A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

There is one early limper, I call and the blinds come along(they always do).

Flop comes down
4 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

Blinds check, early limper bets, I was considering raising (for a free cards and to give my Ace a better chance if it hits, when one of the blinds left the table and mucked). I called, and the other blind folded.

Turn 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]
He bets, I call.

River K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
He bets, I raise, He re-raises, I think and think and cant put him on 56 and cap it.

Comments greatly appreicated. I am wondering now about the flop call, it worked out, but I think a raise might have been better.

Also wondering about the turn check. I figured if he had any decent draw he was going to call the raise and did not want to show strength yet. Sure, there are a lot of brick cards, but I don't think I would have gotten the river action that I got (Unless of course my read was totally off and he did indeed have the five-six)

Results to follow.

Thanks again.

Huh [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[Tyler Durden]

"Also wondering about the turn check."

Umm, you didn't check the turn? Maybe you meant the turn call?

I think you played the hand okay. I think a raise on the turn would have been better however. If he doesn't have 56 then he's way behind, charge him to stick around. If you won the hand then obviously the turn slowplay worked to your advantage, but I don't think it's +EV.

As for him having 56, everything he did on the hand is consistent with him having this holding, but what are his preflop standards? Would he limp in EP with 65s? Only you know the answer to that question, young Jedi. I'd say it's highly unlikely, though I have seen it before in an attempt to throw opponents for the proverbial loop.

[J.R.]

I prefer a pre-flop raise if the limper is weak and predictable with this hand in LP, otherwise I fold.

I don't mind calling from MP in a loose passive game where I can expect limpers, but don't like raising from MP with this hand.

I would have raised the turn. Raising the flop is not routine but if the blinds are tight and the limper is weak, go for it as it will perhaps garner you some action later on, it cleans up your outs and lets you draw cheaper.

Hope he had KQ.

[Huh]

I was actually surprised and disappointed when I didn’t get at least one late caller. I really figured on seeing the flop at least five-ways, probably six. This was a very passive game, and after two people limped, the majority usually followed suit. When I loosen up, it is usually playing Axs and smaller pairs a bit earlier than I would in games where many people see the flop without a raise. That was this game.

I don’t think calling the turn costs that much. With position, I am likely to get three bets either way. Also, any “cheap” card I give him at this point, he is likely to stick around for anyway…If he happened to pick up the back-door flush draw, he is not going anywhere.

Huh [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[Huh]

Yes yes yes, call the turn. Such a stickler for terminology.


As I posted in my other reply, I think I am getting three bets either way, and by doing it this way, I am never confronting the opponent with the decision "This is going to cost me two big bets to get to the end".

Huh [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[J.R.]

"I don’t think calling the turn costs that much. With position, I am likely to get three bets either way"

Possibly, but I don't see your opponent putting you on a straight but rather two pair with a turn raise, so I still think you get at least the turn call (2 bets) and possibly mutiple (two+) bets on the river if your opponent improves his presumed one pair to trips or two pair. This gives you a bigger upside, and unless your opponent would fold on the river sans improvment (which I think many of my opponents will not do) , the downside is still the same (three bets on turn and river).

The fact that your hand is more disquised (although he may put you on the flop openender that turned the straight) is why I like the raise. The thin calling and overplaying tendancies of the limper also will impact this decision and supports raising as the more clear choice for me the more the limper exhibits either or both of these qualities.

[Huh]

Well, my opponent turned over KQoff, for the rivered to pair and I took down the pot.

I am trying to re-think my strategy about the turn and river. It seems that in the past, when I flopped or turned a big hand, if I was out-of-position I would check-raise the turn and lead out on the river, and if I was in position I would raise the turn and bet the river.

This seemed to work well, but frequently better players would lay down a good hand. My first reaction to this was to occassionally try some check-raise bluffs or semi-bluffs on the turn, but this proved to be an expensive experiment. So I am looking at this as an alternative, in some situations.

Still think I should have raised the flop. One small bet, to improve the chances of my Ace holding up seemed worth it alone, and parlayed with the chance of a free card I think it would have been a better play.

Huh [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[Snoman]

I think on the flop you can safely put your opponent on a Q. So as long as he does not have AQ (remember how passive it is so this is not out of the question) you have 7 solid outs to win in what is likely to be a heads up confrontation. If you raise and wreck your already poor odds (and risk getting 3-bet) you will probably drive out overcards in the blinds which may help your ace win it. But if you were to know that someone folded an ace than your odds are even worse (in order for them to call with two overcards they need specifically AK). Maybe letting the blinds hang around isn't so bad, maybe your card comes in on the turn and makes them two pair and you pick up some additional bets. I think my choice would be to fold, call, fold, raise in that order on the flop [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Sno