Overaggressive turn checkraise w/ top pair?

Ulysses · #1 02-20-2003, 05:56 AM

15-30.

K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] in BB.

Tight UTG limps. Very bad, loose CO raiser raises. Button and SB fold. I call. Should I have 3-bet here? UTG calls.

5 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

I check. UTG checks. CO checks.

T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] (5 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img])

I check. UTG bets. CO calls. I check-raise. UTG calls. CO contemplates a while and calls.

2 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] (T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img])

Checked around.

Bet the river, right? For some unknown reason, I decided UTG had AT. He showed me QTs.

PokerPrince · #2 02-20-2003, 06:01 AM

I would of just bet out right on the turn and river.

PokerPrince

MichaelD · #3 02-20-2003, 08:09 AM

Ulysses,

I am not quite sure why you were going for the check raise here but I would have simply bet out the turn.

If I had bet the turn, depending on the turn action and my remaining opponent(s) would determine how I played the river.

When attempting to read the hand of another player, it is important to put that player on a range of hands , and adjust that range according to the subsequent action, rather than to put a player on one hand and always stick to it. I would suggest before checking or betting the river, that you take a moments pause, and contemplate the range of hands the utg may be holding. Since you describe him as tight, AT, K10, Q10, and J10, likely all suited, seem like very reasonable holdings here.

Proceeding on the basis that this is a reasonable thought process, given this range of possible holdings, a bet is clearly the correct play. I believe if you had taken a bit more time and thought things through with a bit more clarity, you would have come to the same conclusion and have bet the river.
This is something that is easy to do in hindsight, but can be very difficult to do during the actual play of the hand. Many times adrenaline and instinct take over (instinct not necessarily being a bad thing), and we fail to think things all the way through before we act. I would suggest getting yourself in the habit of calling for time, or taking time, when you find yourself in situations such as this one.

Again, not to belabor the point, but getting two callers on your turn check-raise, with only two opponents, seems to be cause for some concern at first glance. However, when analyzing your descriptions of the players, and how the flop action played out, and then the subsequent turn action played out, I think you can definitely justify a river bet here.

It seems to me that you were observant enough at the table to pick up the right information, but simpy failed to completely think it through and act on it accordingly.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

SoBeDude · #4 02-20-2003, 08:29 AM

I would suggest before checking or betting the river, that you take a moments pause, and contemplate the range of hands the utg may be holding. Since you describe him as tight, AT, K10, Q10, and J10, likely all suited, seem like very reasonable holdings here.

Michael I think you're being really unfair here. And I think you're reverse-engineering your range of hands.

Tell me, how can you put UTG on only hands with a 10 before he has ever bet? This is what you are doing telling him to bet it out on the turn! With nothing but a limp and a flop check, he could have a very wide range of hands, most of which DON'T include a ten.

Even UTG's bet on the turn only MAY indicate a ten. It may have been a bluff because the others were so passive. I think the check-raise is a good play.

And I think a bet on the river is the right play here as well...for many of the points you mentioned.

-Scott

Ulysses · #5 02-20-2003, 01:49 PM

Good post.

I am not quite sure why you were going for the check raise here but I would have simply bet out the turn.

I figure I'm most likely ahead on the turn. CO is unlikely to check an overpair or set on the flop. I also figure that most likely neither one of these guys has a pair. So, if I bet, I'll probably take down the pot right here. On the other hand, if I check, one of them is likely to take a stab at this pot and either fold to my checkraise or call, drawing thin.

Since you describe him as tight, AT, K10, Q10, and J10, likely all suited, seem like very reasonable holdings here.

When he bet, that's the range I put him on. When this tight player called my checkraise w/ the pre-flop raiser to act behind him, I considered that he might also have a big hand like a flopped set. He would not re-raise w/ two pair or a set, fearing 67 or JQ when I checkraise.

Again, not to belabor the point, but getting two callers on your turn check-raise, with only two opponents, seems to be cause for some concern at first glance.

Yes, the two callers definitely concerned me, but I think you're right about taking a second glance here. Two pair is unlikely on this board. Especially w/ no flop bet. A set is also unlikely and a straight would surely 3-bet on the turn. So, really, the only hand to fear is AT from UTG, and since JT/QT/KT are all just as reasonable, I should go ahead and bet one more time.

astroglide · #6 02-20-2003, 03:03 PM

why would you want to 3bet? you have a tight limper and you're out of position.

i would bet the turn and river. the turn checking through could be a disaster.

but wait...i see the limper isn't tight. QTs utg? even i wouldn't play that. ATs and KJs are my minimum, and for KJs the game has to be decent.