AKo - A hand I find interesting. Do you agree with the approach?

[Dieter01]

Villain seems to be a good TAG (~20% VPIP, 11% PFR, good overall aggression levels) with solid play. We have yet to have a confrontation.

The button seems to be suffering from a mild form of retardation; he has a difficult time finding the fold button (but to what extent, I'm not sure).

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] .
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] , 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (11 BB) A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

[MrEngenic]

Yes, I so totally like it! Let button overcall with his weak hand so you can split his money if you are tied with SB. I'm not sure you are ahead of SB either, no reason to shut out button and go into a raising war with SB.

[PJM1206]

I raise flop. I think you need to see his reaction and get a better feel for what he may have. There are many hands he could 3-bet given his aggression. The only hands that beat you are AA, KK or JJ all possible but he could have AK AQ as well plus others. If he doesnt reraise you, you probably have the best hand if he does reraise you are probably beat (unless you have any good reads on him) and need to reevalute where you are. This is actually cheaper than calling to the river and you have a better feel for what he has. The 3 calls cost you $2.50 the raise is a $1.00 $1.50 if you call his reraise.

[MrEngenic]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise flop. I think you need to see his reaction and get a better feel for what he may have. There are many hands he could 3-bet given his aggression. The only hands that beat you are AA, KK or JJ all possible but he could have AK AQ as well plus others. If he doesnt reraise you, you probably have the best hand if he does reraise you are probably beat (unless you have any good reads on him) and need to reevalute where you are. This is actually cheaper than calling to the river and you have a better feel for what he has. The 3 calls cost you $2.50 the raise is a $1.00 $1.50 if you call his reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so you raise to get rid of buttons dead money and fold when 3-bet by another AK, or call the 3-bet and fold the turn?

Worst advice ever.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise flop. I think you need to see his reaction and get a better feel for what he may have. There are many hands he could 3-bet given his aggression. The only hands that beat you are AA, KK or JJ all possible but he could have AK AQ as well plus others. If he doesnt reraise you, you probably have the best hand if he does reraise you are probably beat (unless you have any good reads on him) and need to reevalute where you are. This is actually cheaper than calling to the river and you have a better feel for what he has. The 3 calls cost you $2.50 the raise is a $1.00 $1.50 if you call his reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think calling down is fine. The pot is getting large, and we have a donator willing to stick around to the river. We should not be looking for a spot to fold.

[davelin]

The read seems to suggest that the Button may call even after a bet and a raise.

[Sir Bruce]

I think you played this way too passively, especially with the calling station in the button. Raise the flop, have the calling station make a terrible cold call, and see what the SB does. If the SB has AA or AK, he might slow down, fearing KK. If not, it's ok, because you're not terribly behind (chopping is likely) and can switch to a call line.

The rest of the hand plays differently if you take over as aggressor on the flop. Button and SB will continue to call you down, and you might get a free showdown (to avoid the C/R from the SB) on the river.

[imported_Reaction]

Three betting range of a TAG: AA-JJ, AK, AQs

So on the flop,

Hero is behind -
AA - 3 ways w/ 2 outs
KK - 1 way w/ 0 outs
JJ - 3 ways w/ 2 outs

or 1.7 outs

Hero is ahead of
AQs - 3 ways w/4 outs
QQ - 6 ways w/ 2 outs

or 2.6 outs to over take Hero

Hero ties with AK

Button could have almost anything - maybe eliminating some outs maybe not.

On the turn Hero's outs drop to 1.5 but the chance of being ahead increases.

You played it perfect. If this were HU WA/WB would be the line. Now you have the button donating to the pot when your ahead and splitting it when tied w/ SB.

[kgrad5]

You missed atleast one BB here.
given your read on of the villain, if you raise you might lose him, however what is his read on you?
given your read on the button if you raise, you will not lose him.
you have 3 viable scenarios here.
1) raise the flop.. villain reads you as a weak player etc. he might call down anyways and button is calling down so you make 1BB
2) raise the turn.. this might drive out the villain but again.. you make 1BB from the button and more if the villain stays anyways
3) raise the river, you make an extra 1BB from the villain and again villain may call you here.

if you dont raise.. you wont make more money, given your read on the button i think you missed out on some bets

[Dieter01]

OK... This wasn't really a hand I played. It was playe by Entity, who also posted it. I just liked it so I wanted to put it back up here. Some of the responses back then were:


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<font color="blue"> mmbt0ne </font>
What's wrong with this? Keeping button in the hand means more money for the pot without you having to risk more of your own money. It's like a bonus when you split with his AK.

<font color="blue"> Dead </font>
I like it. I don't see the point of raising the river here, because if Button folds and SB calls then you win the same amount you would if you called and let Button overcall(is that the word?) behind you. There is less risk this way because you would hate to get 3bet here.

<font color="blue"> olliejen </font>
i like it. A lot.

you use SB's aggression vs him when he's overextending TT, QQ.

you have have position (and don't fear a Button raise) so you lose the minimum when SB crushes you with Jx, AA, KK. no raise keeps Button in for when you chop KA.

<font color="blue"> spacemonkey57 </font>
You raised preflop

I like it. You can't really protect your hand on the flop. I think the turn is one of those way ahead or way behind things, and if you were behind on the turn then you're still behind on the river.

Are you raising a blank on the turn?

<font color="blue"> kenberman </font>
if the button is that calling-station-esque, then I think you can raise the river. I don't think SB is folding for 1 more...so it's close.

<font color="blue"> Entity </font>

I don't know if Button will call two on the river. I'd say there's a 90% chance he calls for one bet and a 60% chance he calls two.

I also still don't have a clue about SB's range of hands, but I'd say it's AA-TT, with TT and QQ being slightly longshots (but still possible, if he wants to try to push me off of a better hand and get it HU with Button), AQs, and AK.

All that said, I think raising the river is pretty close.


<font color="blue"> Entity </font>

Against a decent villain, what will aggression do for me when I have the best hand? What will it do for me when I have the wort hand?

I don't think this guy was a great TAG, by any means. However, he could certainly find his ass in the dark and could beat up on the worse players at the table. He could easily find a fold with TT here and probably with QQ as well.

<font color="blue"> Chris Daddy Cool </font>
perfectly played.

for all those saying raise the flop. why? at most it gets you 1 extra BB (the button calling two cold and the SB calling the raise) but will cost you a shytload when you're behind because SB will 3-bet you on this flop or checkraise the turn and you're stuck in a position with an aggressive player who might be putting moves on you with a retard button in the hand.

So really the only hand you're missing value on is KQ. But will SB 3-bet KQ from the blinds here? Not many players do. I wouldn't, and I'm about as aggressive as it gets. On this flop there are:

8 combinations of KQ available,
6 combinations of AK where you chop with (we don't know that the A will come on the river),
3 combinations of AA where you lose,
1 combination of KK where you lose,
3 combination of JJ where you lose (this is on the flop so we don't know that the turn will be a J),
6 combinations of QQ where you don't want him to fold,
6 combinations of TT where you don't want him to fold,

also if he is aggressive enough to raise KQ from the blinds, he could very well be aggressive enough to raise 99 from the blinds as well, so add in another 6 combinations.

Given that KQ isn't all that unlikely to begin with and add that to the fact even it if was its marginal to raise at best, callign down is the best option.

Remember Entity capped preflop and the SB is showing no fear by betting into him. He is usually either chopping, way behind, or way ahead probably in that order too because its unlikely he'll bet QQ or TT on that river, Bayes or not.


<font color="blue"> Entity </font>
Combine that with the fact that I'm allowing Button to call easily with hands that are usually drawing close to dead, and yeah, that's it. If he's betting QQ, I want him to keep betting QQ, so raising here sucks. If he's betting KK, JJ, AA, then raising here really sucks.

<font color="blue"> chaz64 </font>
Rob, you have only one villain behind you on this flop. Do you raise if you have two or more yet to act, to protect your hand?


<font color="blue"> Shillx </font>
It depends on the pot size and what the villian will do. Let's say that the pot is 30 bets when the SB leads out and the hero is next to act. Does it do him much good to raise right now?

It is very tough to answer because we need to know if the SB will bet again on the turn. So if he bets and everyone calls, it does us no good if he will check the turn with QQ when 4th street bricks out. If the villian will keep betting until shown resistance, then it would probably be correct to call the flop and raise the turn (that raise best protects our hand). However if he will only bet the turn if we are beat, then it is better to raise the flop for value. It does us no good to wait because now we are sucking wind and paying 3 big bets at the same time.

<font color="blue"> Entity </font>
Rob, you have only one villain behind you on this flop. Do you raise if you have two or more yet to act, to protect your hand?
A flop raise doesn't offer a whole lot of protection if there are multiple people in the pot, but I might raise for value then. It depends on the players and how I feel they will react to a flop raise.