All this preflop talk...

[Jorge10]

Now im not a big aggressor preflop, I like to outplay people post flop, when I put people on a hand im usually right so I find it easier to play post flop. The question is, is this a leek? What I mean when I say im not an aggressor preflop, I mean I wont ever pot it preflop, but I will raise the same amount with any hand I really like, this includes, A/A, a strong A/2, a strong A/3 and a strong 4 Face Card Hand, or even Two Big Pair(i.e. K/K/10/10). Ill raise the same with all those hands preflop. Am I really losing out by not potting it preflop with A/A? I find it too predictable if I always pot it with A/A so I will bet about 3 times the bb with all these hands, which is not pot. Its just that when you pot it you might as well, say well I got A/A, but this way you really cant tell where im at preflop. I dont know im running pretty bad, I would post some of the hands, but the comments would be, well the river sucked on that one. Because there isnt much else you can say about them as I put in my money with the best of it and got beatdown on the river. I am just trying to find leaks in my game. How do you guys play preflop? I think this is the biggest leak in my game, so any comments would be of great help, thanks!

[Wintermute]

Potting pre-flop is a good idea. To disguise your AA hands, pot pre-flop with other good hands (A2, A3, A4 suited ace) depending on game conditions, etc. I'd recommend shooting for a PFR% of around 10 or higher. That way your AA and other monsters will be disguised somewhat.

Also, it can't hurt to post these hands you're mentioning. It could well be that you're just running bad, but usually what seems like a long run of suckouts is actually accompanied by a few mistakes in judgment...

[emptyshell]

There are winning players that almost never raise preflop at the $100 level. I haven't really examined stats of people at the higher levels, but (at least in a generally passive preflop game) I don't think it's critical to have that style of play.

If you do raise preflop, you have to try to steal a lot more after the flop with much less than the nuts.

[gergery]

The main problem with not potting it preflop is that you don't get paid as much on your good hands.

second problem is that you leak info while simultaneously give good implied odds

third problem is that you don't steal blinds ever, and don't pick up any pots on the flop with continuation bets/bluffs.

of course its possible to be successful playing passivley preflop, but its harder.

[Chamonyx]

What about those hands where you really want to be h/u? Such as KKTT as you mention?

As 'Mute says, pot it with other strong hands to disguise - and also to punish the limpers

[ADAMtheEXPERT]

Ok, you need not bother looking any further: ATE is going to answer, and we all know that I"M the number one authority in the WORLD, by FAR!

Ok, well, if you don't raise at ALL, then this is a major, MAJOR leak. As ATE has indicated in other articles, pot limit omaha is NOT a game of putting in massive amounts, before the flop, REGARDLESS of what you may have, INCLUDING numero UNO! (AA23 double suit) Now, if you have bought in for the max, and are now low in chips (which should NOT happen, as you want to maintain a full stack, ALL of the time) AND you have a PREMIUM hand (and I DO mean PREMIUM) and it's been established that your opponents are not foolish enough, to call a massive reraise, AND someone has raised in front of you, for an amount that will make your reraise sufficiently SCARY . . . .

Ok, you get the point. As I said in my new article, OMAHA is a game of MAKING things, not having the best hand before the flop, and having is stand up.

When we make massive reraises, all we do is tend to get out the very hands, that we want IN

When we have A 2 3 K with spades and hearts, we WANT someone with A 3 4 10, with lower cards of our suit.

let THEM stay in, when the flop is 5 6 Q with two of our ace suit, (that also matches their suit) and THINK that they have something, only to bust out their WHOLE STACK, when the turn comes with a suited card, and they think that surely ONE of their hands, might be good.

This is where the money is, in pot limit omaha. Unless you have HYPER-premium hands, against HOPELESS hands, the better starting hands are not very much of a favorite, over poo poo hands, HOTandCOLD (Ed note: "hot and cold" means that two hands are played against each other, with no further betting)

Yeah, ATE likes AA 2 4 with suits, against a A 2 5 K, but still, this is a rare matchup. MOST OF THE POWER (or lack thereof) in pot limit omaha8, is on the flop, and beyond.

YOu don't want to put in all your money, before the flop, only to have some GOOBER, happen to get lucky with their bullshift hand. UNLESS, as ATE said, they are willing to do so, with a hand that has very limited potential, against yours. But, of course you never know what they have.

If someone is going APEPOOP, with A2-nothing-nothing (such as A 2 unsuit, 9 Q, go ahead and POP 'em, with good AA2baby hands. But, the person has had to demonstrate strong tendencies to go in with secondary hands, to even THINK of "going for it"

Now, when the stacks are big: Say you built up your 400 max buy, into 1365, and so does your opponent

Do NOT, repeat NOT! make raises that are big enough, to make you feel that you are committed to the pot, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR STARTING HAND. YOu want to at least have aces and the nut low draw, with a good texture

Example: you hold AA2K double suited. Someone makes it 12 (in the 400 max game) You decide to make it 20 to build the pot. They now make it 45. YOu do NOT make another raise. When the flop comes something like

J 3 6 rainbow (yet you have a backdoor, or double backdoor flush draw. You can GAMBLE a little, but be very CAREFUL, if they make a pot size raise. In that case, you run a very serious risk, of running into A 2 3 6, or A 2 3 J. But at least you'll have at least a fighting chance, all the way up to a big freeroll.

(My God, but I am such a genius at this)


And, oh yeah, just in CASE you were wondering: The PLUCKIN" information, IS right!

So, keep on MITT DA 3xbb raises, you don't want there to be nothing in the pot, when you hit a monster.

You might elect to make a little bit bigger raises, with some of the better hands. Noooooo, the opponents are NOT good enough, to pick this up, except for the best ones.

And, if you do it right, and have no set patterns, you'll be able to KEEP EM GUESSING.




Adam, the helpful genius, and the number one master in the world, by FAR, in the matter of omaha.

[Jorge10]

Yeah its a lot harder to win without raising preflop, I take a lot more flops than most people, I mean ill play A/4 all the time. My raises preflop are usually not to get out people I make them as inviting as possible, they are mostly to build big pots. I guess in that sense I think thats a major leak. I mean when you dont raise enough to get out people its gotta be a leak.

Chamonyx: K/K/10/10 doesnt want to be heads up at all, its a terrible hand heads up because the game is high low. That hand wants a lot of callers and a lot of money in the middle so that if you hit your set you can pot it and get people with smaller set and two pair to call you.

Ate: It seems that you agree with me, in a way or another, I read your post 3 times and I still dont get a lot of it, but it seems to me that you say I should raise more preflop, and thats good enough for me.

[gergery]

If you keep this up, I’m going to have to start an entire thread to correct your inaccurate advice. Not to mention your run-on sentences.

[Chamonyx]

In limit I would agree. In PL (other than a very passive game)I am not so sure. The more callers you have increases the likelihood of your flushes getting cracked, straights getting made and lows free-rolling you.

In early position, by all means limp and see a flop and then react. In late position I still prefer to pot it to try to thin the field (but it's not a disaster if everyone calls since that makes it likely the aces are dead, versus trying to get clever with AA67). If you miss the flop, fold to any significant action, or take the (quite possibly) free card. If you hit then you know what to do.

This also gives you another opportunity to raise pre-flop with something other than a premium low hand.

Just my .02c, feel free to shoot

[mxyzptlk]

10% is pretty high for full ring. With this %, I think you'll be raising some pretty marginal hands, and some good ones out of position. In EP, i'll just limp with some quality hands, hope for a late position raise, and then just call. If the flop hits you hard, you can then go for a CR.

In full ring, I really hate raising out of position PF, and then getting 2-3 callers behind me. It's really hard to know where you're at.

I agree with the hands he says, but I think if you raise with these and in decent position, you'll probably land more around 6-7%.