Isolation cap?

[MrStretchie]

This is sort of a theoretical question brought on by a real game.

Say the player two to your right is a real maniac preflop. Raises any playable hand plus any A or K, plays a lot of other hands. One to your right is a good, trickly LAG.

You have A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Maniac open-raises, LAG 3-bets. Cap? Fold? .. Coldcall 3?

I was capping this. I still like it, as maniac's a maniac, and LAG looks like he's isolating.. But I'm wondering if ATs is strong enough.

Now what about after limpers?
Or if the seats are BTN, SB, BB (you)?

Lastly, where's the line? If you're capping this, do you cap A9s? Offsuit? Or would you need AJ or better?

[highlife]

ummm, it almost exclusively depends on what LAG is iso-threebetting with doesn't it?

your position sucks so that definately factors in as well.

[MrStretchie]

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ummm, it almost exclusively depends on what LAG is iso-threebetting with doesn't it?

your position sucks so that definately factors in as well.

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Indeed, it would be good to know.
OK, so let's say the LAG makes this play with any two >= J, any pp, At-A8, Kt-K9.

Or even if you add a few.. I guess my problem here is that unless the flop comes ten high, you're going to be in a difficult guessing scenario against a maniac and a LAG. I could see the maniac opening the flop and the LAG raising - can you call/reraise UI? Even if his range was larger it'd be tough. (Although hopefully the cap would discourage that.)

I mean.. say he made this play with any ace or king, and any two cards ten or higher.. the cap has to be right then, but it could still be very difficult to play after that. Against two players it's very likely one of them catches a pair.. how far are you going to go UI?

By 'your position sucks'.. you're acting last. Do you mean it sucks because you won't have the opportunity to lead into them?

[ike]

I'm pretty LAG preflop but I draw the line for this particular play at AQs or AQo, and probably 99 or TT for pairs. You have to have a pretty good hand here because you have pretty dreadful reverse implied odds because your hand is so much more defined than either of theirs. In this situation its extremely unlikely that anyone will fold a better hand to you postflop and it'll probably be 1 bet per street when you're ahead but often more when you're behind.

If the maniac continues to be really awful and unreasonable postflop this is somewhat less the case since he may give you lots of bets when you're ahead and you may be able to play him off against the good LAG to get some convenient folds on the turn. In this case you can probably add in AJs, maybe 88.

[MrStretchie]

Thanks - that makes a lot of sense.
Just out of curiosity, what's your cutoff for a standard isolation play?
(Say you're the good LAG here and maniac openraises from MP)

[ike]

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what's your cutoff for a standard isolation play

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This depends on a bajillion different things, most importantly how likely I am to get it heads up and in what ways the maniac is exploitable postflop. In just the right situations (tight passive unimaginative players to act behind me, a maniac capable of folding the flop to 1 bet, late postion, etc), any pair, any ace, broadway cards, middle suited connectors etc, can all be fine.

[highlife]

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Or even if you add a few.. I guess my problem here is that unless the flop comes ten high, you're going to be in a difficult guessing scenario against a maniac and a LAG. I could see the maniac opening the flop and the LAG raising - can you call/reraise UI? Even if his range was larger it'd be tough. (Although hopefully the cap would discourage that.)


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I think you answered your own question here. And I don't think the cap will make the flop much easier to play. The only situation that you can hope for is that its checked around to you, you bet, and the maniac raises. Then hopefully if the LAG missed he will fold. I don't think the hand will play like this enough times to make the cap correct. Therefore, you should fold.

[PokerDork]

What position you are in preflop matters. If maniac was UTG, LAG was UTG+1 and you were next, I'd fold every time. If I were on the button I'd probably cap. In a situation like this, there is so much money to be made, that you don't have to push every little edge you might have. For two reasons, 1. You'll keep the variance down a little bit, and your hourly rate will still be substantially higher than normal, and although variance isn't bad you may significantly lower the % of times you are able to profit, since this is not a long term situation. And 2. You don't necesarily want your image to be the LAG next to the LAG and the maniac. Having your isolation caps and 3-bets be successful is big in this game, as one of your hopes with ATs is that AQ and AJ will fold behind. Just wait until you have a good hand and the money will pour in, I think the 99+ AQ and better- as previously stated- is not a bad guideline.

[MrStretchie]

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Or even if you add a few.. I guess my problem here is that unless the flop comes ten high, you're going to be in a difficult guessing scenario against a maniac and a LAG. I could see the maniac opening the flop and the LAG raising - can you call/reraise UI? Even if his range was larger it'd be tough. (Although hopefully the cap would discourage that.)


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I think you answered your own question here. And I don't think the cap will make the flop much easier to play. The only situation that you can hope for is that its checked around to you, you bet, and the maniac raises. Then hopefully if the LAG missed he will fold. I don't think the hand will play like this enough times to make the cap correct. Therefore, you should fold.

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I guess I did. I though a lot about this after doing it (although at the time I think I caught an ace and it held up..) Just wanted to see if others agreed with the concerns, or just thought it required good postflop play.

I've been very successful since I started playing mostly shorthanded, but I'm amazed at how LAG my style's become compared to FR play. Most of it's good, but I think I need to pull back a bit to strike the right balance. This is one of those spots.

[sfer]

Since neither a maniac or LAG are folding to a cap who exactly are you isolating?