Fold to a scarecard???

Peter-23 · #1 07-07-2005, 06:10 PM

Is this a sure fold and if so on what streat.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, 5 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

deception5 · #2 07-07-2005, 06:12 PM

I think if you're folding this it has to be on the turn. Heads up I think I would call this down more often than not though.

A_C_Slater · #3 07-07-2005, 06:12 PM

I would fold the river. He either waited for a delayed raise with KT, QT, AT on the turn or he hit a flush more than 1 in 8.75 times here. Check/fold river.

If the pot had a few more BB's in it then I call.

ncboiler · #4 07-07-2005, 06:25 PM

Any read on the player? I call down an idiot here.

hobbsmann · #5 07-07-2005, 06:31 PM

Calling down HU is fine when you are raised on the turn when a scare card comes, but by the time the top card pairs on the river you really aren't ahead of very many hands and probably have to fold. Like another poster pointed out it is very possible that you were raised on the turn by a JT, QT, KT, AT type hand (possibly with one spade) in which case you are still ahead on the turn, but not on the river. Of course this all changes if the guy is an idiot, but I'd say against an unknown calling the turn and folding the river is a fine play.

PatJ · #6 07-07-2005, 06:31 PM

Unless we know he'd never raise without the flush it's a call on the turn. The 10 on the river though, kills our hand. What can we put him on that we're ahead of? Would he play pocket nines like that? Anything else, whether flush, ten, or even a straight has us killed and the pot is not big enough for the crying call.

Derek132260 · #7 07-07-2005, 06:38 PM

I don't see what you're beating on this river once the ten hits. The one thing a typical player MIGHT wait til the river to raise is a ten...when he raises the turn, you're HOPING that he has a ten. When the ten hits the river, what else is there? Relatively small pot, I'm folding this river absent reads telling me this is a player capable of pulling off a turn semi-bluff raise when picking up a draw.

Justin A · #8 07-07-2005, 06:42 PM

I play this the same way. He doesn't have to have a flush or a 10 here. Depending on how loose this guy is, he could have a smaller counterfeited two pair like 75, or a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Against an unknown I call down, if I have a read that he's tight and passive, then I can fold.

Derek132260 · #9 07-07-2005, 06:57 PM

Yeah, I guess absent any reads this is a tough fold to make. The typical party donk could play As7x against a raise...the really bad ones could even play something like 75. But if I looked here and saw a VP$IP of less than 25, I think I'm folding.

Peter-23 · #10 07-07-2005, 07:22 PM

I had no read on him and he didn’t stay very long.

I usually call down in these spots but after this hand I started thinking.

Who will call a pre-flop raise and not raise top pair on the flop? Would you slowplay that here?

So what could he have when he raised me on the turn? Well he could be bluffing thinking I had AK or something but he called my raise pre-flop and my bet on the flop!!!

I start to think that I should have folded to the raise on the turn! If he were no idiot the only thing I could beat was a very unlikely bluff maybe with overcards!!!

Its one thing to bet even though a scarecard comes but to call the raise?

Where do I draw the line?
Should I never fold to a scarecard raise if I can call down cheap?