KQo -- pimp lmd loved this one

mike l. · #1 07-07-2005, 03:38 AM

ok so im playing 15-30 good live game, some guy limps and i raise it with KcQs. my image is of someone who would rather fold than play a hand and these guys dont know me from any other time, i never play there. older english accented gent on my right 3 bets, button calls 3 cold for no apparent reason, bb calls, limper calls, i call. 5 players for 3 bets.

the flop is AQT all hearts. checked around to preflop reraiser who bets, folded back to me and im looking for the muck but i cant seem to find so i call.

the turn is the 4h and i bet, he calls.

the river is Ks. i bet.

comments?

Lawrence Ng · #2 07-07-2005, 03:50 AM

I like it Mike.

Lawrence

mike l. · #3 07-07-2005, 03:52 AM

"I like it Mike."

really? what do you like about it? little michael davis liked that it made him laugh but that's about it.

Lawrence Ng · #4 07-07-2005, 04:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]

"I like it Mike."

really? what do you like about it? little michael davis liked that it made him laugh but that's about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're making a move, nothing too special imho. You can put him on a set and the Ks on the river makes it just even tougher for him to call. You got a lot of bluffing leverage on that board if he doesn't have a heart and if your opponent is folding even say 20% of the time here on the river, the bet is fine.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I like taking these opportunties lately and taking them a lot. Working out pretty good for me and I have you to thank for that which is why it sucked when you didn't post on here for while.

Lawrence

vulture · #5 07-07-2005, 04:48 AM

Hi Mike,

First, he bets on the flop, while he is able to get a free card, with a lot of people that have to act after him. You're probably beat on the flop, but you don't have to be behind very much, so your call can be justified a little, though I think a fold is the better move considering the three heart flush and you having no heart.

I don't think your bet on the turn is good. He probably has an A at least (probably he has an even better hand) and he won't fold this hand, also not on a riverbet (except when K or J hits the river). If you would have checked here, you could savely fold on a bet and if he checked behind you, you know more about him having a flush or not or how strong his possible flush is and it gives you the possibility to outdraw him. If he would check behind you on the turn, a rivervaluebet would be a good move if a K or J hits, but the way you played the turn your river (value)bet is not good IMO. With what hands will he call you that don't beat you (not just pair of aces anymore)and what hands will he fold that dominate you? I think none. He called your turn bet, this indicates he has a good hand. Again if you checked the turn you would have got all the info you need to play the hand through.
The main point is that you risk too much, while you know there is a very small chance that he has a hand that is dominated by your hand or that he is able to fold on your bet somewhere. The way the hand developed was giving you the oppertunity to let him make mistakes (check on the turn would possibly let him make a mistake by checking behind you with a better hand, giving you the oppertunity to outdraw him). You didn't take advantage of this IMO.
I am really curious what you think of my reasoning, so I hope you'll react on my post.

Regards,

Vulture

mike l. · #6 07-07-2005, 01:36 PM

"but you don't have to be behind very much, so your call can be justified a little, though I think a fold is the better move considering the three heart flush and you having no heart."

yes but im getting 16 to 1 on a call closing the action. so it is close.

"I don't think your bet on the turn is good. He probably has an A at least (probably he has an even better hand) and he won't fold this hand,"

if he has AsKs or something he most certainly has to fold. there are four hearts on the board.

"but the way you played the turn your river (value)bet is not good IMO."

but was it a value bet or was i just following through on a bluff?

"The way the hand developed was giving you the oppertunity to let him make mistakes (check on the turn would possibly let him make a mistake by checking behind you with a better hand, giving you the oppertunity to outdraw him). You didn't take advantage of this IMO"

good point. i felt at the moment i decided to bet the turn there was more value in trying to deceive my opponent re: the value of my hand. when he flat called i started to like my chances of betting the river and taking it down. i wasnt sure it would work but felt it would work enough of the time for it to be worthwhile given the size of the pot. so it was a two stage bluff. once i got past the first stage, the turn, where i learned he did not love his hand (he did not seem the type to call along with the Kh and trap) anymore i had the gained the information i needed to bet the river. perhaps i just got lucky and it was the K falling on the river that helped my cause. or maybe not. it was a big pot and when the chance to win it opened up i decided to take a shot, having not done so all evening. anyway my opponent folded the river. he most certainly had a better hand like a set or two pair.

vulture · #7 07-10-2005, 06:08 PM

Hi Mike

<blockquote>Als antwoord op:<hr />
if he has AsKs or something he most certainly has to fold. there are four hearts on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need more info on your opponent to be sure. I play a lot of $40-$80 on paradise and a lot of players won't fold this hand on a bet. So maybe, where you played this hand, the opponent would fold a lot of times, but I am not sure if it is that clear most of the pokerplayers will. I am not even sure if he has to fold on a bet (like you say). In a lot of games you'll make a costly mistake when you fold the AK hand here; in a lot of games a fold is clear. Again I think it is player dependent, but I absolutely disagree with you that he most certainly has to fold.

<blockquote>Als antwoord op:<hr />
but was it a value bet or was i just following through on a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is an important point, where my conclusion on his hand range is much different from yours. He calls on the turn. With the info you gave me this call means IMO that he will go to a showdown, so a bluff is chanceless on the river . Can you explain me with what hands he was able to call on the turn in your opinion and would fold on a riverbet. I think none and that he made his decision on the turn that he was going till the end.

<blockquote>Als antwoord op:<hr />
when he flat called i started to like my chances of betting the river and taking it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this conclusion (see explanation above).

<blockquote>Als antwoord op:<hr />
once i got past the first stage, the turn, where i learned he did not love his hand (he did not seem the type to call along with the Kh and trap) anymore i had the gained the information i needed to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why didn't he love his hand? He would call with so many hands there that he will also call on a riverbet (all small flushes, and more (two pair, set)) and with which he is happy to call.

<blockquote>Als antwoord op:<hr />
anyway my opponent folded the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently my read was wrong on him, considering my reaction that a bluff was chanceless on the river. Still I think the whole play had, because of the development of the betting, nothing to do with a clear read. If he played right your opponent should have folded on the turn, with every hand he would have folded on a riverbet.

Hope you'll react on this post!

Regards,

Vulture

mike l. · #8 07-11-2005, 06:25 AM

i dont have a lot of time to go over it but basically none of the hand made any sense, particularly the part where i bet the river. it seemed as soon as i made the bet that it had no chance of working. but then he laid his hand down.

anyway the 40 on paradise is a completely different game than the one im describing.