Big Blind QJs in poker heaven

[Huh]

I'm in the Big Blind with QJs and six limpers to me. I raise and it gets called around. I don't remember all of the action after this, but I am really only interested in the pre-flop raise.

I hate the idea of only raising super cards in the big-blind, but took a bunch of crap for making this raise.

Is this a horrible raise? I always thought that in ultra-loose-passive games this was an okay move for the following reasons.

1)It's not a difficult hand to play post-flop when you know you have to show down the winner to drag the pot.
2)Although you are out of position, when you flop 4-straight or a 4-flush, you are in a good position to check-raise a good portion of the field and trap people for many bets and build equity.
3)Many people will automatically put you on Aces or Kings, so your hand is pretty well disguised.

Is there some horrible flaw in my logic.

Huh [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

BTW)on the actual hand I flopped a four-straight, checked the flop, bet out on turn and river and won the pot unimproved, without having to show down. So maybe this negates point one a bit, but I think things went perfectly for this to happen.

[andyfox]

"I. . .bet out on. . .[the] river and won the pot unimproved"

This happens much less often, in my experience, when a player doesn't raise pre-flop than when he does.

[astroglide]

andy made a good aside point there

there are a number of hands many people will limp with including kq, kj, aq, aj, axs, and kxs that will thrash you.

i'm all for raising hands more liberally out of the blinds as long as you think it's best, especially for the sake of disguising your aa/kk/etc raises from the blinds, but i've come to seriously doubt the whole 'raise jts after a bunch of limpers' move.

the value of the hand is in the draw, and with draws you want to flop a draw (or heaven of heavens, a made hand) as cheaply as possible. your pair strength isn't worth noting with a hand that can be so dominated.

[astroglide]

i would really like to see what abdul and izmet think about these types of moves (from the button or the blinds) now

[HDPM]

Taking lessons from Bill Murphy on how to win mounds and mounds of chips with that hand are you? [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Rick Nebiolo]

Agree the value is in a draw but QJs flops many draws relative to the field and this is a big field. The trap here is pushing one pair too hard (because the pot is big).

If it was JTs, don't you flop a flush or straight draw alone about 25% of the time? This would seem to indicate an overlay.

~ Rick

[DanZ]

Well, I think the raise is fine if people will chase too much with bad hands because of the bigger pot, or they are playing awful cards to start. Otherwise, I don't think there's much to it, but it's certainly not very harmful, unless there is siginificant risk of a limp reraise from a big pair.

Fear of being dominated should not be a huge concern. THere was no preflop raise, and you preflop raise should make others, even with top pair, be pretty passive against you, so if you are dominated, it won't cost you a raising war (and in general, it should not).

Then again, I limped with AA in the SB with 7-8 limpers once, so perhaps I am to be ignored on this topic.

[PokerPrince]

I think the occassional raise out of the blind with a hand like this is a great play to make. You're giving away way too much information if you're only raising from the blinds with the biggest hands. Might as well play with your cards face up.

PokerPrince

[astroglide]

well here we go...

according to turbo texas holdem v4 sims (small sampling), limping is preferred. i took the average lineup, and replaced seat 10 with the hero holding qjs. seat 8 permanently had the button. only games where 6 people limped with holdings they felt were worth limping were counted (they will raise sometimes, but those hands will not be recorded in the sim).

i stopped at 2000 played hands for each, but maybe i'll go a lot longer with it.

limper won 20% - played 2016 times, won 404 times, invested 160,460, returned 175,737 (net gain + 15,277), total ev = $7.58

raiser won 20.8% - played 2010 times, won 419 times, invested 164,620, returned 179,298 (net gain + 14,678), total ev = $7.30

i would discount the rate on the small sampling - not sure if 2k is enough - but the fact that their win rates were almost identical is pretty convincing.

[brad]

i think sklansky said raise in bb with Tx suited and above suited when everybody is in. (7,8 others i guess).

doesnt apply to mid limit but in low limit i think its even better as you pay less rake