I can't beat .5/1 Party

sexdrugsmoney · #1 07-06-2005, 09:16 AM

Guys I need your help.

I can't beat .5/1 Party, I'm down 150BB's in the last 3-4 days and my confidence is shot to pieces.

My V$PIP is around 25, pfr 8-9, I'm going to SD about 37 and winning just over 40.

SCfuji (thanks fuji) asked me to post these stats. The norm is as-is, my numbers for comparison are in brackets to the right of the norm numbers: (% from the Won $ at SD % column in PT under misc stats)

One pair ---- 21.9% (35.90%)
Two pair ---- 24.7% (41.28)
Three ------- 14.5% (64.62)
Straight ---- 12.0% (88.00)
Flush ------- 11.4% (80.43)
Full House -- 10.7% (76.00)

These players keep outdrawing me coming in with dominated hands, I honestly can't take it.

I don't want to move up in limits because I'm determined to step up each limit as a "stepping stone" and if I can't beat .5/1 then I'm going nowhere until I can.

I haven't read SSH (its in the mail) but have read Lee Jones book.

If I follow Jones' advice I'm folding too much when a scare card hits, if I follow Millers' (from the threads I've read of his in these forums) then someone always has those scare cards.

What prompted me to post this thread is that today a player sat down at Party with $20 and turned it into $100 within about 2 hours.

He was jokingly confident and had a V$Pip of 95! and a pfr of 12, he was crushing the table and PT has him pegged as "Loose Passive/Passive" (so he wasn't a maniac)

I then thought to myself, "is this how you're supposed to play the really low limits? virtually never fold pre-flop and cold call infinate raises?" ... I just don't know.

I hear about people "crushing" tables and limits but whenever I play I never feel like I'm crushing anything even if I win a few hands in a row.

Where does this confidence come from to say you can "crush" something?

Any advice is appreciated, I really need help, I'm not touching the game for a while.

Cheers,
SDM

Here's a recent hand if you guys wish to comment, UTG+1 was the guy who played 95% of hands BTW. (table had a pfr of around 4 and tightness of about 17-20)

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, CO (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, BB calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, BB calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, BB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 18.75 BB

SCfuji · #2 07-06-2005, 09:18 AM

we cant give you help if you dont show us how you play

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...amp;PHPSESSID=

compare your stats with these numbers and then post some hands for us to discuss.

flopwell · #3 07-06-2005, 09:31 AM

I am experiencing the same thing, to a degree at Paradise .50/1. While I am only down 50 BB after 2k hands, I just can't get ahead. I was winning at 8 BB/100 over 10k hands at .25/50. What I find is that the tables are significantly tighter at the new level, which means there aren't as many easy games, so I remember the bad beats more and more. In fact, I was up 20 BB after about 100 games last nite, when at one of these tables a 75/1/0.38 sat down and double his buy-in largely at my expense. I isolated him 3 times with TPGK or better and he drew out every time, with nowhere near the odds to draw. Such is life(or poker at least,) but it didn't make me feel any better when I left down 1 BB a little while later.

Keep your head up, play good poker, and by all means, READ SSHE [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

KingOtter · #4 07-06-2005, 09:37 AM

You can't push the cards... all you can do is be there waiting for when they turn your way again. Concentrate on making good poker decisions, be confident in your play no matter what the outcome and don't focus on the money.

KO

Fantam · #5 07-06-2005, 09:38 AM

That guy was just being extremely lucky. I have seen that happen with other players playing too many hands also. But if you had to see them play all the time, you would notice that they would be losing overall.

Wait to receive your copy of SSHE and in the meantime read the forums here, and make your own suggestions as to how to play hands. You will get feedback from other players if they disagree with your advice, and this will help to improve your game.

Also review the hands that you played and post a few of the ones which you had difficulty with here. Explain your decision making and thoughts at the time of playing the hand, and see if other players would have played your hand the same way.

My understanding is that Lee Jones book recommends cautious play for new players, so its possible that you misunderstood some of the book's suggestions.

Keep reading and post hands here. Winning play will come with a disciplined tight (and agressive) approach, but it takes time and practice. Its not easy, but with patience it will come.

RatFink · #6 07-06-2005, 09:54 AM

It's been awhile since I read it, but I believe limping UTG with T9o isn't in Lee Joneses Book.

davelin · #7 07-06-2005, 09:55 AM

Fold pre-flop

Fantam · #8 07-06-2005, 10:09 AM

Fold PF. 9To is unlikely to win many top pair hands as it is dominated by too many other hands, such as AT,KT,QT,JT,A9 etc. Also you have terrible position.

Flop. With a pair and gut-shot you had sufficient outs to call to see if your hand improves from middle pair.

Turn. Your turn raise was fine, when you made your straight. You are tieing with anyone else who has a 9 and only behind an unlikely Q9.

River. The 9 on the river counterfieted your hand. Unfortunately you are now behind anyone who has a Q. Everyone else also now has at least the same hand as you.

You should have checked the river and folded to a bet against 2 other players. The river bet is very unlikely to be a bluff when you are not HU.

UATrewqaz · #9 07-06-2005, 10:13 AM

Grunching.

Well first it is possible to be in the midst of a huge legitimate downswing. My guess is that you have a few leaks though.

1. VPIP of 25% is a tad on the high side, closer to 20% is ideal I believe.

2. Win % at showdown of 40% is way low, this needs to be at around 50%, indicates you are taking hands to the showdown that are obvious losers (unimproved AK or middle pocket pairs?)

3. As for the hand you posted, calling UTG with T9o is bad, bad period and worse in early position.

I'm by no means an expert but I did 3.8 BB / 100 over my last 10K at .5/1 and moved up to 1/2 where I'm currently doing 6.8 BB / 100 over my last 3K there. I do nothing special other than play tight preflop (20.4 VPIP) and only bet/chase draws with right odds.

look at the following hand categories and see how you aer doing with each, all should be winners in the long run.

1. Big Pairs (AA-JJ)
2. Medium Pairs (TT-77)
3. Low Pairs (66-22)
4. Ace/Face + Face/Face Suited
5. Ace/Face + Face/Face Offsuit
6. Ace/x Suited
7. Low suited connectors (T9 down to 54)

You may discover you are habitually not playing certain types of these hands, each have their own problem.

1, are you not raising preflop enough?
6/7, are you playing them against small fields or out of position?
2, are you taking them to showdown unimproved on hopeless boards or not knocking out opponents when possible?
5, are you the master of the Q/J offsuit from UTG?

etc.

Dave G. · #10 07-06-2005, 10:13 AM

Firstly, your hand. Fold this preflop please. T9 SUITED is a hand you can think about playing from early position, but offsuit is a nono (infact don't play T9o from anywhere, ever, until you have a very solid understanding of what you are getting yourself into postflop). Your multiway potential is limited because you can't make a flush that's likely to win too often, and you won't flop a straight or straight draw often enough to compensate for the cost of playing this hand. And finally, it won't make a winning pair often enough either. A better pair will come along, or someone with the same pair and a better kicker can still beat you.

Check/call that river if it's one to you, if it's 2 or more then fold, any Q or 6 has you dead to rites.

You will understand these concepts more once you read, reread, rereread SSH over and over again. They're too indepth for me to explain here and Ed Miller does a much better job than I ever could, so grab that book and study it like there's no tomorrow.

As for the rest of your post...

Someone with a VPIP of 95% will not be a long term winner. That's just all there is to it. Over the long run, he plays too many unprofitable hands that will drain away his bankroll. I've seen one dude, an awful awful player, win over $300 at a 2/4 table through the course of his session. He was playing the most awful crap ever, but he was catching cards. My guess is, those winnings are all long gone now.

Over the short term, anyone can hit a good run of cards. When you play solid hands, you are playing them because on average they will be winners, not because they will win every time. You could have AA dealt to you 12 times and have it lose every single time. You should raise it the next time too. This is a key point to understand - you must detach yourself from short term results and focus on the plays that are winners in the long term.

Other than that, it's study, practice and experience. That's where the confidence comes from.