Omaha 8 Situation

[sam h]

5-10 Omaha 8. Very good game full of loose and largely passive players. They will play a lot of mediocre hands before the flop, even to a raise. But, for whatever reason, they find it difficult to call three bets cold before the flop with the same trash. UTG raises, which for this player means a legitimately good hand, and UTG+1 you look down at AAQ2 double suited to the aces. Is your EV higher three betting and probably playing this hand heads up or three way or calling and probably playing with five or six players who will play badly with mediocre cards after the flop?

[DPCondit]

You have an excellent two-way hand. Some people may disagree with me, but I would let the worse hands in here. Two nut flush draws, pair of aces, A-Q broadway draw, and A-2 nut low draw. I think I make more money by keeping in the worse hands here to pay me off if I hit. Of course if I got a chance to raise AFTER most people had already called two bets, then I would raise.

Don

[Buzz]

Hi Don - First, let me congratulate you on your fine showing in the world Chowaha championship. I didn't win one hand and was out relatively early. On one hand I saw the flops (3 flops of 3 cards each for those of you who don't know the game) and the turns (2 turns of 1 card each) with JJ and then with about ten big bets in the pot and hand odds of 37 to 2 against catching a jack on the river, folded to a big bet on the third betting round. There was already a pair on the board(s) so that a jack would have given me a winning overboat. Then when a jack came on the river I felt like someone had slapped me across the face. I hate it when I fold after the turns only to see the card I need on the river, even when I think I am making the odds-on play. In retrospect I probably should have folded when I didn't catch a jack on the flops. Ah well, there is always next year. At any rate, congratulations to you.

With regard to the current post, I agree with you. I don't think you want to limit the field against chasers when you have a hand with such fine nut draw possibilities. Although I don't like the bare ace-deuce and although the pair of aces plays better against a smaller field, the two nut flush draws tip the scales toward limping here, in my humble opinion. In addition, raising before the flop alerts your opponents to the possibility you have AA or A2.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

I too agree, let the bad players in. Most of your money will be made by the people drawing dead to non-nut flushes. You do not figure to be in good shape for low. The original raiser likely has A2 and you have no counterfeit protection. That leaves at most one Ace for trying to hit your set. You want lots of callers so that you get good odds on the flush draw.

[Big Dave D]

Has anyone done any sim analysis on this? SOme players I respect would *always* reraise in that spot, as would I. The reasoning being that whilst flushes are great hi hands in omaha, they are only going to hit 10% of the time with your two suits. Most of your hi equity will be from your two aces standing up. If this is the kind of game the poster describes, which would be a good match to online games, 3 bets will get u headsup or 3 way, two bets 4-6 way, then surely the best way to make money is to reraise? Otherwise you may find a garbage hand snafuing hi, whilst you are 1/4d or even miss the low.

Gl

Dave D

[beetman]

I am inclined to reraise. If you run a quick sim and give the UTG raiser a typical "good" hand like an A2xx hand or a AAxx hand, it seems like you will be a pretty significant favorite heads up--something like 2:1. Against a "good hand" and a few random hands, you don't do nearly as well, mainly because your lows will often be quartered or because the "good hand" has some of your high outs. Being quartered for low heads up is fine because you will usually have better high chances and will more often than not end up with 3/4ths.

[DPCondit]

It's interesting how we have different philosophies here. In a loose game (assuming that these players also make significant mistakes post-flop), I still think I can squeeze more ev out of letting the loosies in, even though it means folding much more often on the flop. Players who have played higher limits and more short-handed games, and more tighter games are usually much more inclined to reraise here (from what I have seen). I am a significant winner in these types of games (looser full-table), and I believe that you are also.

A simulation will not show the number of bets you save when you fold the flop if it hits wrong, or how many extra bets you can extract from a large field when you make a nut hand. Also, I am used to playing where $5 gets raked anytime there is a flop, and I think that is another reason I like to have a little extra "dead money" (well maybe not completely dead, but highly dominated) in the pot (for example, 6-12 at the Bicycle).

Anyways, just my 2c.

Don

[Phat Mack]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Hi Don - First, let me congratulate you on your fine showing in the world Chowaha championship. I didn't win one hand and was out relatively early.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aha!!! Buzz's secret vocation is revealed. Chowaha roadplayer! I can picture it as clear as day - Buzz driving down a lonely two-lane blacktop in his Bondoed '66 Vista-Cruiser. He pulls in to the two-pump gas station at a crossroads, approaches a group of locals squatting by the Coke machine and asks, "Hey, any of you boys play Chowaha?"

[DPCondit]

From the description, it sounds like you know him like a brother. Buzz, have you been hustling Chowaha down in Texas again? [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Don

[Ray Zee]

three bet it. you want it headup here. you will get to play the hand to the river and capture your equity. against a larger field you may easily be the one in the middle. look again at the hand. its not that strong multiway. it has no conterfeit protection, so your low can get you crushed. and aces are only good in omaha headup. plus all high hands are always being drawn at giving you small edges. this hand wins both ways headup lots of times and not often against a big field.