Free card with a set?

[spiral]

I'm interested in comments on the way I played this hand.

Thanks for your critique.


Online 5 - 10, 5 handed.

I'm on the button with black 8s.


The SB and the BB have recently entered the game, and so far seems to be a good shorthanded players.
I'm sticking around to book their play to decide if I should stay at the table, since the weak player that I sat down for has just busted out. I've also been able to put some moves on a strong player in the game, but he's going to catch on soon.

So far I've played four or five hands pretty agressively, and won all of them, only showing down once.

Folded to me, I raise, SB calls, BB folds.

The flop is 7c, 8h, 9h.

SB bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I cap it.

Turn is the Jack of hearts. check - check.

River is the 9 of clubs.

SB bets, I raise, and am called.

[Jason Pohl]

Well played. You aren't giving a free card there. If you were against a draw, the J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] put you behind. If you're winning, your opponent is drawing to 2 outs or dead. The only one you're giving a significant free card is a singleton heart. Frankly, that's the risk you take and why it's a close play.

Other advantages of checking the turn:
1) Increases likelihood of getting paid off on the end.
2) Varies play.
3) Sets up plays and reduces opponents' bluffs later if you've had to check the turn w/ a weak hand.

So, in fact, you got the free card and got paid off too. Great job.

--Jason

[spiral]

The reason I posted this is I feel like the 4 bet cap online caused me to miss a bet here. If it were live, it would have gone more bets on the flop. With hands like this, I like to put in the last bet on the flop because it enables me to control the total number of bets that go into the pot, but with the 4 bet cap that strategy may be wrong.

There are many shorthanded hands where I would prefer to put in many bets on the flop and then have the option to check behind on the turn. I'm interested to know how others compensate for the cap, so I picked a case where I couldn't see a sane alternative strategy.

I'm wondering what the strategic impact of the cap is.
The hand I posted basically plays like a draw because there are many scary cards that can hit on the turn and river, and I need to either catch runner-runner misses of those, or pair the board. The 4 bet cap means that powerful draws and hands like this end up winning 1-2 small bets fewer in many cases.

the problem is that I need to outplay people who use this familiar strategy:

flop: check-call
turn - check-raise
river - bet

for a total of 7 small bets into the pot.

On hands where I use the approach that appears in my post, I am often only going to win or lose 6, and I won't be able to fold to a river bet if the board comes horrible because there won't be enough flop action to figure out where I am.

Generically, suppose a flop comes out where I have a 56% chance to win and my opponent has a 44% chance, and I'm currently ahead. (Hypothetical situation). Suppose I can guess which turn cards make his hand. Now I definately want to freeze the action to the point where he won't lead the turn. I want him to be afraid that I might have a better version of his draw or have him drawing dead so that won't bet. Otherwise, his ability to win extra bets when he draws out somewhat compensates for his lower win percentage. But I can't do that as easily with the 4 bet cap. Does this mean that powerful draws are stronger online than they are live?

This explanation is needlessly torturous, I hope someone can grasp what I'm getting at.

[Jason Pohl]

Some B&M rooms will cap at 4 also. However, I'm not so sure it would have gone to 5 anyways.

If it did, that's really not worth that much to you...maybe a fraction of a bet. The only real question on this hand was the turn play. Checking is the correct play IMO, with little doubt.

Remember, you could have been even on the turn if your opponent had both a flush draw and a straight draw. You theoretically could be losing to the higher set or a made straight also.

As for the player who consistently
Flop: Check-call
Turn: Check-raise
River: Bet
...there is a viable counterstrategy. Even two options.

Keep betting the flop. If you have a powerhouse hand, bet the turn and reraise the checkraise (or wait to raise the river). If you have a weak hand, check the turn and be prepared to call the river bet (hopefully, you will induce a fair number of bluffs.) If your opponent checks the river, take that read and decide whether or not to make a bluff or value bet (depending on the situation).

Remember, check-raising on the turn can be a disaster if the opponent checks. Since in this case, you are the opponent, you can hand the familiar player a disaster or two and thwart his strategy.

Finally, you say, "Otherwise, his ability to win extra bets when he draws out somewhat compensates for his lower win percentage. But I can't do that as easily with the 4 bet cap. Does this mean that powerful draws are stronger online than they are live?"

His ability to win extra bets is the only thing that compensates for his lower win percentage. Other than what's in the pot already. The 4 bet cap is plenty strong enough to freeze most opponents. If it's not freezing them, figure out what their bet on the turn means. If they bet with the nuts, fold or call to draw out. If they bet with mediocre holdings, they will often fold to a raise with such a dangerous board.

Powerful drawings in my book are at least 12 outs and usually 15+. If I have 15 clean outs on the flop, I am happy to get more money in, since I am the favorite. So, no, draws are not stronger online than in person. But I may be misunderstanding what you're saying.

Hope that helps,
--Jason

[spiral]

If you can be troubled a bit further, read through this. It clarifies a bit more what I'm getting at. Also, if you know a better shorthand way to describe what I'm getting at, let me know.

As an aside, I've never played at a B & M room that capped raising heads up, that's new to me.

You said the following:
Powerful drawings in my book are at least 12 outs and usually 15+. If I have 15 clean outs on the flop, I am happy to get more money in, since I am the favorite. So, no, draws are not stronger online than in person. But I may be misunderstanding what you're saying.

That's exactly right. The problem is that I as your opponent don't always know the nature of your draw. Sometimes it is flush + straight, other times it is pair + straight, etc. To take myself out of a guessing game, I would like to put in so many bets on the flop that you start to think that your outs are not clean, i.e. that I might have your draw counterfited. What I would like to do is get a bunch of bets in the pot on the flop so that you won't semi-bluff the turn, and so you will hesitate to bet the turn even when you catch. I can now safely check behind on the turn if a scare card comes because we already put in the number of bets that I wanted to get in for the hand. Even if this scare card didn't make your draw, you would have called on the turn anyway so it isn't a free card in the conventional sense.

This is hard to explain in writing for me! An example:

board is 7c8h5h.

Now suppose you hold various strong draws, i.e.:

6h Ah
9h Th
7h 9h
8c 6d

With most of these hands, you will normally assume that your draw is good. Sometimes I will be able to do nothing about it, for example the A high flush draw. But with the 86 hand, If we put in enough bets on the flop you might start to doubt your straight is good even when you hit it. Also, I want to be able to get an extra bet when you miss on the turn, but if you have the straight draw, and a flush card comes, I won't know that you missed.

Since I have a strong redraw with my set, I don't want to fold. Given that, I don't want you to bet the turn when you hit, but I don't want to give a free card when you miss either.

If I was in this spot with a weak made hand like top pair, I definately want to stop you from semi bluffing so I can fold if you bet.

Normally one of us will bet the turn. You if a scare card comes, whether it makes your draw or not, and me if one doesn't. What I want to do is shift that bet to the flop, so that I can check behind any scare card and still bet blanks. Putting in the last bet on the flop does the following:

1. Sometimes makes you think your draw is dominated and shift to call down mode on the turn
2. Inhibits turn semi-bluffs
3. Makes some players try for a turn checkraise
when they hit

The problem is, like you point out, with a super good draw 4 bets on the flop just isn't going to accomplish that goal. Even very strong draws are subject to the above effects when enough bets go in on the flop, though.

A related side effect is that in the case of a scare card that misses you, I'm indifferent to whether the betting is 4 on the flop and 1 on the turn, or 6 on the flop. You would call in the first case anyway with a powerful draw, so all I really want is the same total # of bets to go in.

In the case that you already hold a made hand, this strategy is still good. If it is something super strong like top set, a scare card actually helps me when I check behind and save a bet. If it is a weak made hand, you probably have few to no outs against my set so I get an extra bet if you bluff the river. Also, most of your apparent improvement cards leave me best or also fill me up, making the river play well for me.

If I hold a weak made hand, I'm glad to check behind the turn also and I will tend to fold to a river bet depending on the player. This is the toughest one to play well, but many players will check both the turn and the river with mediocre hands, allowing me to check it down, or bet if I improve. Others will bluff or value bet the river after the turn checks through, but most are dissuaded after being picked off by several of my strong hands that were played this way. It is opponent dependent however.

I guess I'm trying to describe my whole shorthanded approach in one post, which is doomed. I didn't cover the case where you aren't a draw very carefully, and I didn't talk about when I have a strong draw at all.

The bottom line is, my approach to shorthanded play keys around the flop, and is definately hampered by the cap. Is there a quick soundbite that explains how the cap changes correct strategy?

[spiral]

[Jason Pohl]

To simplify, I conclude two things.

First, you are overvaluing the free card on the turn. If you raise and reraise enough on the flop, you will soon find yourself losing more money against a big draw than you would save on the turn, especially since many good players will not check the turn (when they made their hand) even if you cap the betting at 5 or 6 bets on the flop.

Second, I think you are undervaluing the strength a 4th bet shows. You really shouldn't need any more on the flop to show strength. Above 4 bets, your opponent is indicating enough strength already to suggest that they likely won't check on the turn OR they're already ahead.

Frankly, I reckon it to the example of a person raising and reraising and reraising with a QQ vs an AK. The QQ is a small favorite, but do you really want to risk all your money on a small favorite? If you're a good player, you will find many more favorable situations. And in your scenario given, you're not even assured of being a favorite.

I play it by capping at 4 bets and leading if a brick hits the turn (or raising if bet into). If the danger card hits, I'll check behind or simply call to see the river. I intend to see a showdown no matter what unless I have an excellent read on my opposition.

--Jason

[Tyler Durden]

I don't like your play at all. You did the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do when confronted with a coordinated board such as this one.

You've got to jam the pot every chance you get with both a flush draw AND a straight draw.

[spiral]

Tyler,

I'm pretty confused by your comments. Could you elaborate?

It seems like you are implying that I have a flush draw and a straight draw. Did you misread the hand?

Or did you mean that I should jam against a possible flush/straight draw on the turn? But the card that came seemed to make everything!

Or did you mean that I should have not jammed the flop?

Help! I couldn't decipher your comments at all!

[Tyler Durden]

I meant that a flush and straight draw are possible with the board given. I like your jamming of the pot on the flop.