The 5max Anomaly...or is it?

[KDF]

To continue the discussion of the 'Deadly heads up..."

Interestingly enough, it seems to me that ‘loose/ passive’ short handed hold’em –in particular some 5max games at Paradise—can be quite troublesome to beat. As matter of fact I very often lose substantially. It has become apparent that the aggressive style advocated by the experts just doesn’t work in a loose/ passive short handed game. This is not just one aggressive player dominating the table; that is not to troublesome since I can play well against such a player and would rather have him there to break up schooling pacifists. When I say loose passive, I mean 3 or 4 (even 5) players frequently calling down to the river with minimal raising other than my own. At a full table this is lovely, but I find in 5max games it takes many of my weapons out of my hands that are needed to make the game profitable.

For example: semi bluffs have little or no value as a result of players never folding. The free-card play might work once or twice, but it stops working after a few missed draws, and the players get wise to you. Don’t even bother trying to bluff your way through a hand or even just on the end, after all --these jokers call with as little as K high –to keep you honest. Not enough money gets in the pot often enough to make draws worth it (not always true, but more true in these passive low-aggression games). Reading hands is tough because some are just as likely to call you with no over card and a backdoor flush draw as they are with a set or top two pair. Raising from the button after its been folded to you, says, “Please call me, I might really have a hand but you keep calling until you catch your bottom pair and take the pot. Come on! Everybody join in!” –and they do. Heck, raising from anywhere says that!

Now, its been said that playing solid or tight/ aggressive poker is the kiss of death in a shorthanded game. Is that so when there are very few uncontested pots and 3+ consistently see the river? The kiss of death seems to be to the contrary: trying to bang your way through a brick wall with a toothpick; i.e. the recommended shorthanded aggressive style. Don’t get me wrong, this works in typical shorthanded games or games where people have some sense to fold once in a while. But in a 5max game full of calling stations, this idealistic rockem’ sockem’ style is frustrating and expensive, not mention costly (or did I say that already…).

What advice is there to beat the fish –passive/ short-handed-- when there are only four of them to contend with, but they won’t let you win a pot without a showdown?

[tewall]

Tight aggressive is always the way to winning poker. However "tight" is a relative term as it means something completely different in a short-handed game than in a fuller one. Likewise "aggressive" should be understood as "selectively aggressive".

Aggressiveness has many values, among them being getting more money in the pot when you have the best of it and eliminating the opposition. In the situation you have described, elimination doesn't seem to be effective, so you should limit you semi-bluffs to where your draw is very strong.

In a passive game you gain by betting and raising for value. You win because you get more out of your good hands than your opponents do, and by avoiding chasing with bad hands.

Here's a couple of idea. First of all, if you have HEFAP read the loose game section which deals with pot manipulation. The idea is to keep the pot size small at the beginning in order to encourage larger errors later.

Secondly you said the free play won't work, so use that to your advantage. When you have a strong hand, raise on the flop. They'll bet into you again on the turn thinking you're on a draw, so raise again. Similary if you have check-raised on the flop, check again on the turn. They'll bet into you thinking you are playing for a free card, so you can raise again. Use their betting patterns against them.

Check-raising can be a valueable weapon to make it unprofitable for your opponents to chase. Lee Jones talks about it and it sounds to me like this might be applicable for the game you described.

Finally recognize that this type of game requires a great deal of patience. A better player can easily make a mistake by being too aggressive in this type of game. Be aggressive when you have an edge, but make sure you have an edge. Don't worry about people sucking out on you. The ideas mentioned in HEFAP and Jones should help you really capitalize on your opponents' predisposition to chasing.

[Vehn]

The simple answer is tighten up some and start taking more free cards on the turn with position especially if they're weak enough to let (check) you win on the river with your ace/king high.

[Jason Pohl]

I don't have a lot of time tonight, so I'll keep this real short.

Don't bluff. Raise for value preflop rather than to steal. Play fast when you hit the flop (real fast).

Then...
Take down nice sized pots when your opponents call you all the way against your flopped two pair, straight, or set. Shrug and eat another pretzel when somebody hits their gut straight draw to beat you.

Remember, short-handed poker does not give enough odds to draw, especially on the turn, with the exception of flush and open-ended straight draws. So, if your bluffs don't work, just play straightforward and punish your opposition for their weakness...they call too much. That simple.

It's boring (and you won't believe you're playing that way in short-handed games), but it works if the opponents are way too loose.

Hope that helps,
--Jason

[Your Mom]

Can you give me some pre-flop standards for this type of game? Is it basically what you would play in a ring game in mid/late position?

[eMarkM]

See Jason's excellent series of articles on S/H play at PokerPages. It's has several parts.

[Pot-A]

Egads, you've hit on it! The fastest way to bust yourself in a short-handed game is to play too agressively. In a four or five handed game, any pair is a calling hand. In fact, you'll be far less able to bluff in this type of game. Tighten up a little and get paid off when you hit.