Pocket Kings in middle position

Wizard0965 · #1 06-26-2005, 11:54 PM

I've been at the table for 30 hands, no one seems overly loose. I'm not sure with the huge pot whether I should've laid it down or if I should've done something else different any ideas?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button caps, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (26.40 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, Button calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (17.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (21.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 24.20 BB

DemonDeac · #2 06-26-2005, 11:57 PM

too big a pot to lay that down on teh river

nomadtla · #3 06-27-2005, 12:06 AM

I don't know that there was really a good place to lay them down but if you've allready made it to the river then the river is deffinately not the place to fold them with the size of this pot.
I think I may have 3 bet the flop (if he's an unthinking player) then his 3 bet pretty well tells you what you wanna know then fold turn UI. Don't laydown a pot this big on the river (when you have at least a decent hand)though it makes babies cry.

McGahee · #4 06-27-2005, 12:27 AM

Interesting hand - I doubt MP2 is 3-betting PF and then shutting out the rest of the field with 2 cold on the flop with a Q, so I'd bet the turn.

It looks like MP2 and Button each have big pairs of their own - AA, JJ, or maybe even KK - so you're probably not going to do better than a chop.

I still don't think I could make this river laydown though, because UTG's play is a complete mystery - it just looks like a complete donkbet. I don't know what the hell he was coldcalling with on the flop if he had spades; and if he had a Q he would've C/R'd the turn.
Edit: UTG has 55.

Henke · #5 06-27-2005, 12:33 AM

3-bet the flop. MP2:s action doesn't automatically mean AQ, QQ or AA. It can be an agressively played JJ or correctly played AK[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. If MP2 hasn't been very passive in earlier hands, I would probably be thinking about capping the flop here and leading the turn. Many players that would have trips here would wait until the turn/river to raise...

Checkraise turn after the flop call [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Calling the river would probably be fine. You aren't pushing out hands that are better than yours, and by just calling you are getting 2 more big bets in if your hand is best. Only chance I'm folding here is if it comes back capped...

Wizard0965 · #6 06-27-2005, 01:18 AM

The hands are here for the curious. MP2 has KK, BB has AA, UTG bet out with 66

DCWildcat · #7 06-27-2005, 02:12 AM

3-betting the flop is an absolute necessity. Your hand is way too strong simply respect 1 raise.

Not sure about the turn, though I don't think it matters. I'm thinking you lost to a boat or, more likely, UTG's spade flush

Duerig · #8 06-27-2005, 09:43 AM

I would 3 bet the flop.

TomBrooks · #9 06-27-2005, 02:27 PM

I'd call one bet on the river getting 21:1, hoping to win slightly more than needed to break even. I think UTG made a flush though. I'm going to put MP2 on KK or AA and the Button on AKs.

Edit Note: After reading the thread, I realized I was a little too narrow on what hands I put Button on. He could have KK or AA and be afraid of a Q also.

UTG is simply a Super Donk. He goes on the buddy list.

GTSamIAm · #10 06-27-2005, 02:46 PM

3-bet flop. Charge possible flush draws. Define your hand and MP2's. You want to see if he caps or calls. If he caps, he probably has AQsuited,QQ,KK,AA,AK of diamonds. If not, he probably has JJ,KK,AA,AKoffsuit.

If he doesn't cap, lead the turn and see if you get raised. From there you are probably beaten but a call down may be correct due to the huge pot size. If it is 3-bet or capped, fold your hand.

If he caps, bet and see if he raises again. You are almost definitely beaten, but you can win a small fraction of the time here and show a profit. If you are ahead you want to charge other hands to see the river and possibly fold them. If 3-bet or capped, again fold. Otherwise call down may be correct.

Call-downs are borderline and a read definitely throws the decision either way, but you have to win the hand such a small fraction of the time, I think it often is +EV.