Preflop raising in limit O/8

[sy_or_bust]

I'm somewhat new to this game, so forgive me if this is basic or redundant. I'm not familiar with the math behind drawing hands in this game. How many players must you expect in the pot before you can profitably raise the following hands, if you raise them at all:

(if you don't know for sure, I'd be interested in how you play them)

1.A2xx-suited ace
2.A2xx-unsuited
3.A3xx-suited ace
4.A3(KQ/JT)-unsuited
5.KQJT-doublesuited
6.KQJT-single/unsuited
7.5432-single/unsuited
8.AAxx-doublesuited aces
9.AAxx-suited ace
10.A45x-suited ace
12.A45x-unsuited

[Truck II]

In a loose low limit game, I usually only raise with A2 from late position (unless it's extremely loose and I don't think my raise will thin the field any, then I'll raise from anywhere), and my hand must have some high potential or another low card: A2QQ, A2 suited, etc. A23 is good too.

I wouldn't play KQJT single suited at all unless I was in the small blind, maybe the button.

[Buzz]

sy_or_bust - All the hands you have listed are generally recognized as reasonable starting hands for beginners. In addition, there are some other very strong starting hands, for example double suited 23KK.

Of the hands you have listed, I'd tend NOT to raise, pre-flop, with
5.KQJT-double suited and
6.KQJT-single/unsuited.

Some very fine Omaha-8 ring game players disagree with me. Some other very fine Omaha-8 players agree with me.

With the other hands you have listed, whether to raise or not is very situationally dependent, in my humble opinion. In other words, I'd raise with any of them in certain situations but in other situations, I wouldn't raise with them.

It makes sense to raise from early position with hands that play well one-on-one against groups of opponents who will tend to fold to double bets.
For example, the hands you've listed that have a pair of aces will typically play well one-on-one.

It makes sense to refrain from raising from early position with certain other hands when you are in a game where many of your opponents tend to play junk if nobody in front of them has raised, but who tend to fold junk if somebody has raised. For example, you might not want to raise with ace-deuce-trey-king from early position if many of your opponents will otherwise be drawing to inferior low hands after the flop. You might not always want to raise from late position with such a hand either, since rightly or wrongly many of your opponents will tend to put you on a good low draw. You'll get one more bet out of them on the first betting round, but you might lose opponents who otherwise would chase on the next three betting rounds.

It really depends on your opponents.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Ironman]

Truck,

In my very humble opinion, I think making a blanket statement like "not play KQJT" anywhere but the blinds is a mistake.

I understand what your problem with the hand is, but I find this hand to be profitable in my PT database. I will limp in with this hand for one bet, then decide how to proceed with my straight or better. If it's not there, I'm out.

By the way, I do agree with your raising criteria. For me, it is more of a positional decision. I have to have the cards, that's for sure, but I don't usually raise A 2 from early or middle position.

Dave

[kyleb]

In limit O8, I raise any hand that I feel should build a pot and trap players in. This means raising in late-middle position frequently to add more money to the pot with A3xx single suited and other drawing hands that will pay off big time when they hit.

That's basically the only goal I have, and I adapt it to the situation. Aggression is really rewarded at limit o8, just keep that in mind! (This coming from a rock when it comes to all Hold 'em variants)

[templar999]

sy,

when i first started with O/8, i too looked for advice on which hands can be profitably raised preflop. after getting comfortable with the basics of starting hands, i learned it was more important to figure out what you are trying to accomplish first, then deciding the best course of action. to do that, i think it's more important to decide whether a hand plays better multiway or shorthanded, and using that to decide whether to raise or call, rather than classifying a hand as a raising or calling hand. if that's the case, then you are either raising to drive out opponents or to build a pot. unlike holdem, where most starting hands you'd play do better shorthanded, the split nature and the 8 qualifier for low makes quite a few hands better suited for multiway action.

just one man's opinion. maybe it's not the way you wanted your answers phrased, but i hope it's helpful nonetheless. all the hands you listed are usually playable. you'd have to decide whether you want a shorthanded or multiway pot. if having it shorthanded is impossible with one of those hands that does better that way, i.e. 5 limpers and you're on the button with 23KK, it's probably better to just call and hope for the best.


1.A2xx-suited ace. what a shitty answer, but "it depends" on what xx is. if xx is something like 99, i'd be very tempted to throw it in the muck. if you have another wheel card that gives you counterfeit protection, feel free to raise anywhere. if xx is two mediocre cards like 67 or 8T, probably better to get multiway action. if you dont get counterfeited, your A2 is as good againt 5 as it is against 1. if you xx is a big pair, then a raise to keep it shorthanded is a good idea. it's mostly personal preference whether you think of JJ or TT as a big pair. i play JJ and TT for sets and i dont think they have much if any strength for top two pair. if xx is two big connectors, i'd prefer a multiway pot and hope for a scoop with a big straight or the nut low and top two or set.
2.A2xx-unsuited. same as above, but without a nut flush draw, your hand is considerably weaker.
3.A3xx-suited ace. if xx includes only 7, 8, or 9, i fold it. if xx is a big pair, a shorthanded pot is better. any wheel card or 6 does wonders. with one, i prefer a multiway pot and pray for a deuce. if xx are both a 6 or under, i'd raise from late position to build a big pot.
4.A3(KQ/JT)-unsuited. with KQ, shorthanded is probably better as you'll always have top two pair, if it comes. with JT, multiway is better as you'll be looking to make a straight.
5.KQJT-doublesuited. multiway's better. although i'd raise multiple limpers with this hand in late position for value. if i'm the first in from late position, i'd often raise to try and keep it shorthand.
6.KQJT-single/unsuited. multiway.
7.5432-single/unsuited. multiway.
8.AAxx-doublesuited aces. multiway in early position as you're playing for a flush. shorthanded in late position as you're depending on the strength of your aces. if xx includes a 2 or 3, raise anywhere.
9.AAxx-suited ace. same as above.
10.A45x-suited ace. multiway. i almost never raise with this hand. better to see a flop as cheap as possible.
12.A45x-unsuited. multiway.

as for the always controversial KQJT, i think it really depends on your playing style and those of your opponents. i might be rethinking my mine after reading buzz's simulation on another thread.

respectfully,
temp

[sy_or_bust]

Thanks guys.

I'm also puzzled about raising from the blinds. I've heard/read that it's rarely a good idea (something about being out of position), but to me it seems super-logical. In limit hold 'em, if you have a hand like ATs or JTs in the BB and it's 6 limpers to you, you should raise for value. You have an equity edge, and if you flop a big draw you encourage opponents to draw to 2nd best hands in a big pot. I feel like this ought to apply in O/8 even more so, especially with the nut-low/nut-flush hands and others. What gives?

[templar999]

sy,

i havent come across that too much. i'm curious to know which books or sources say you need to be tighter raising out of the blinds for value (maybe i'm interpreting your comments incorrectly).

i agree with you, but here are some reasons i can think of why ppl would be tighter out of the blinds in O/8 relative to limit HE. reasons followed by my personal experience/opinion.

1. your edge in omaha is never that big. that's certainly true, but the more frequent multiway action should compensate for that. your pot equity should not be drastically affected by big draws to nut hands, especially those with potential to scoop.

2. O/8 is more of a flop game. in HE, big hands such as JJ or AQs may stand up unimproved, but untrue for O/8. makes sense too, but it applies to everybody else as well. doesnt really convince me.

3. O/8 usually requires you to hit the flop at least twice to win the high, whereas in HE, once is often enough with TPTK. this is the most compelling reason for me. outside of monsters like AA2x or A2KK/QQ where you might make a top two pair or a big set with just one card, just about every other hand requires you to hit the flop hard to scoop. in HE, hitting the flop twice is hard. in O/8, it's much easier to run into two small pair while or baby trips. unlike HE, if a flop doesnt hit you, chances are good it helped your opponent(s).

that said, i'd only raise out of the blinds that do well in multiway pots. something like A2KJ, or even high only connectors like KQJT. i'm not as fond of raising with something like A3QQ when five players have limped. maybe i'm crazy and someone will tell me so.

respectfully,
temp

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't play KQJT single suited at all unless I was in the small blind, maybe the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a big leak in your game then.

As someone mentioned - you can raise this hand, OR limp with it, and you can even fold it if it's been 3bet before you act, but not playing this hand from just about any position is a weakness.

If you can get in cheap to a family pot - when you hit the nut straight you will scoop this pot many times. You will probably also a win a fair amount with your flush.

And this hand is an easy hit hard, or miss big hand, so you can get out cheaply if you missed.

[BettyBoopAA]

I think raising from the blinds in O8 is game dependent. Vs good players it's usually a bad idea for the following reasons.
1)
In OMaha it's very common for the first 2 limpers to have the best hand(they limp to encourage action A23K, etc)
They want a six handed flop(very differnt from Hold em)
2 These hands that limp will frequently reraise, I do this often in certain games.
3) Keeping the pot small has benefits as you give the table the correct odds to chase.
4)not raising will conceal your hand, big benefit.