LAG Villian with Double Gutshot Flush Draw

AthenianStranger · #1 06-23-2005, 09:29 AM

Paradise $25, 5-max SB.10/BB.25
Villian is a LAG fish. I post his hand because otherwise you would say that I'm behind to a higher kicker or two pair. I'm not concerned about my play. (This is my first ever post and I'm already being unconventional.) I am wondering if the Villian LAG fish's post-flop play is +EV here.

Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villian is on the button w/ 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB ($27.15 in chips)
UTG ($11.75 in chips)
CO ($9.80 in chips)
B ($9.75 in chips)
SB ($21.97 in chips)

PF: UTG folds, call, call, call, check.

Pot is $1.00.
Flop (4 players): A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets .55, CO calls, Villian calls, SB folds.

Pot is $2.65.
Turn (3 players): K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 1.40, CO calls, Villian calls.

Pot is $6.85.
River (3 players): 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets 2.40, CO folds, Villian raises all-in (7.55). Hero calls (5.15).
Villian wins 20.90.

Tough to fold on that river to this crazy. No big deal, however, as I managed to snap off his ridiculous turn-flush draw overbet all-in with my overpair, three hands later. But more importantly, Villian's play post-flop.

djoyce003 · #2 06-23-2005, 09:38 AM

if he knew he could get you all in, which he could, then he was getting the correct implied odds to make his calls. He had the gutshot on the flop, picked up a gutshot plus flush draw on the turn, when you only bet half the pot, then you paid off his straight....so yeah, against you, his play was +ev.

AthenianStranger · #3 06-23-2005, 09:58 AM

Should I be leading out with larger bets in these situations?

fuzzbox · #4 06-23-2005, 10:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if he knew he could get you all in, which he could, then he was getting the correct implied odds to make his calls. He had the gutshot on the flop, picked up a gutshot plus flush draw on the turn, when you only bet half the pot, then you paid off his straight....so yeah, against you, his play was +ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had a double-gutter - and so had correct odds at every point - and good implied odds (As it turned out).

noggindoc · #5 06-23-2005, 10:08 AM

Yes. Full pot.

AthenianStranger · #6 06-23-2005, 10:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He had a double-gutter - and so had correct odds at every point - and good implied odds (As it turned out).

[/ QUOTE ]

Good odds = pot odds, right? There's two ratios. His odds of making his hand, say 4-1 here (I'm guessing) and the amount he's putting in relative to the size of the pot (including his money), so here, about 5-1 on the flop, and even better on the turn. So if the second ratio is lesser or equal to the first, that means he is "getting odds to call," correct? And implied odds means he can get money after he makes his hand. Naturally he has more for this type of hand, than for say, a flush.

I think I understand. Sorry for my slowness. I am a newbie... so, if I had made pot bets, would he have odds to call even if the CO still called every bet?

fuzzbox · #7 06-23-2005, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He had a double-gutter - and so had correct odds at every point - and good implied odds (As it turned out).

[/ QUOTE ]

Good odds = pot odds, right? There's two ratios. His odds of making his hand, say 4-1 here (I'm guessing) and the amount he's putting in relative to the size of the pot (including his money), so here, about 5-1 on the flop, and even better on the turn. So if the second ratio is lesser or equal to the first, that means he is "getting odds to call," correct? And implied odds means he can get money after he makes his hand. Naturally he has more for this type of hand, than for say, a flush.

I think I understand. Sorry for my slowness. I am a newbie... so, if I had made pot bets, would he have odds to call even if the CO still called every bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah pot odds is right. You got it mostly right.

However - if you bet the pot then you give him 2/1 odds. On the flop he would be making a mistake by calling just for pot odds (although its reasonable to expect that he has some implied odds (you are likely to bet/call something if he makes his hand).
When he hits a flush draw to go with his double-gutter, he is now 2/1 to make his hand - and you might pay off (which you did).
If you bet pot - he is correct to call that bet even if he knows for sure that you will not pay him off for any more money on the river if he makes his hand. This is unlikely as you have bet twice, and his hand is really well hidden.

So he gets good pot odds, and good implied odds - so yep, he made a fine play ... you shouldnt pay him off so liberally with A and no kicker when he goes for his stack on the river - which is showing 4 to a str8 !!!

RedRum · #8 06-23-2005, 11:18 AM

He's got any 2 or 6 to make his straight on the flop = 8/47 odds on the turn, and 8/46 on the river. On the turn he picks up the Flush draw, which adds another 9/46 more outs.

Given that he has 2 chances to make his card on the turn, and by the river his outs doubled, he's about 3:1 underdog in this hand. 1/2 pot bets are giving 3:1 odds, which is what he needs to make the call 'right'.

If you were to bet the pot, he'd be making mistakes by getting 2:1 instead of 3:1 on his money, which if he's good he'd fold, otherwise he's paying you off in the long run.

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RedRum