JJ out of position, how do I play this flop?

Malachii · #1 06-22-2005, 04:03 AM

3/6 Commerce

This is an insanely fishy table, with players that will chase no matter what. Given that, how do I play this hand?

I have J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the BB.

Five limpers, SB completes, I raise.

(13 SB) Flop comes 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks. What's my line here? If I just bet out, I lose any ability to protect my hand, and anyone with as little as one overcard will be correct to call my bet, and they'll all call anyway, so the pot odds will be getting even juicier by the time it gets to later position. If I go for the checkraise, I have no guarantee that anybody behind me will bet. What's the best way to play this?

Acepimp05 · #2 06-22-2005, 04:08 AM

You have to bet if you get raised call planning to check raise on 4th street.You can't check your best bet is to bet.

Malachii · #3 06-22-2005, 04:13 AM

I agree that betting and giving good enough odds is better than giving infinite odds. I guess my question here is that, if you take the fundamental theorem of poker from TOP, basically, my opponents aren't making a mistake by calling me, and my objective is to create mistakes in their play.

Calling is +EV for them, which means it's -EV for me, since I currently have the best hand. So I really do not want any callers. But, given that they're going to call me anyway, I'm wondering what my play here is. The other option is to not raise preflop, but I'm giving up WAY too big of an equity edge if I just check. I guess the reason why I'm asking is that I got drawn out on when one of the fishies hit his five outer, but given my actions his flop call was completely okay, and I'm wondering how I could've made his play incorrect.

Paxosmotic · #4 06-22-2005, 04:14 AM

Go for the check-raise. You have no guarantee that anybody behind you will bet but you also have no guarantee that no one is holding 72o for two pair. That's gambling. You're right that you'll probably get called if you bet out so try for the check raise. If it gets checked through I'd lead the turn, though. This isn't charity and we aren't giving out free cards left and right. Plus, the turn bet is going to double, so they'll be getting 7.5:1 on a call. That should get rid of any weak draws.

Malachii · #5 06-22-2005, 04:19 AM

That's definitely a possibility. While I'm sacrificing a little value (and my nightmare situation is if someone in early position bets, because then there's nothing I can do) and giving infinite odds, I only give them one card to draw out on me instead of two.

PS: There's an interesting section in HPFAP from pages 167-172 that applies here.

Paxosmotic · #6 06-22-2005, 04:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That's definitely a possibility. While I'm sacrificing a little value (and my nightmare situation is if someone in early position bets, because then there's nothing I can do) and giving infinite odds, I only give them one card to draw out on me instead of two.

PS: There's an interesting section in HPFAP from pages 167-172 that applies here.

[/ QUOTE ]
If someone in EP bets you may have unwittingly saved yourself any future bets. If they bet and someone else raises you might be able to move yourself off this hand and save bets if you read them as having two pair or an OESD, what have you. A rather passive way to look at it, but still.

I'll review those pages when I get home from work tonight.

PS : Where in Irvine? Trabuco in Lake Forest represent.

kurosh · #7 06-22-2005, 04:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is +EV for them, which means it's -EV for me

[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong.

JTG51 · #8 06-22-2005, 04:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is +EV for them, which means it's -EV for me, since I currently have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty serious error in logic. A drawing hand and a made hand can both have positive expectation at the same time. The dead money already in the pot and the other players calling with negative expectations make this happen all the time. In fact, with a big enough pot everyone still in the hand could have a positive expectation with each bet they put in.

ArturiusX · #9 06-22-2005, 04:49 AM

Check-raise the flop, bet out the turn. You won't protect your hand, but you'll trap a lot of dead money and fold a few misc overs like K9o etc.

Malachii · #10 06-22-2005, 05:11 AM

Good point. It's late, and I'm tired. What I was trying to emphasize is that they're not making a mistake by calling, it just came out wrong.