Overpair laydown...prudent or weak?

[tipperdog]

I suspect that many will question my pre-flop play, and that's OK. If you would have played differently please tell me how and why, but also, please let me know how you would have handled the flop, had you had played PF as I did.

Early in Party $55 NL tourney. Blinds are 15/30. UTG chip stack is T1,300. I have T1,500. BB has slightly under 1K.

UTG, a seemingly tight player, opens to T125. My best guess is JJ-AA (maybe TT), AQ or AK. I flat call in MP with QQ, wanting to see a flop before committing too many chips. BB calls.

The flop comes 58J rainbow. BB bets 275, UTG raises to 550. I fold.

Thoughts?

[DemonDeac]

it be nice if we knew what u had
couple overpairs to choose from here

[tipperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
it be nice if we knew what u had
couple overpairs to choose from here

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! I had QQ. Original post edited. Sorry for donk-post.

[dmoney]

Tough call.

Id probably end up folding unless on kk, aa myself, hes obviously showing strength and as we know ur gut instinct is usually right, and u had him on a high pair. although he coulda been overplaying ace king and his big bet was just to scare everyone off, i dunno, to me that would be a coin flip call. sometimes i might do it, sometimes i might not. i wouldnt lose sleep over a fold, thats for sure, unless he turns up 2,7o haha lol tghen i might just cry

[Jax_Grinder]

My response is pretty much the same as I posted in People_Mover's thread.

To be honest, this [ QUOTE ]
I flat call in MP with QQ, wanting to see a flop before committing too many chips. BB calls.

[/ QUOTE ] is just bad poker. You ask if your flop lay down was weak (yes, it was - if you don't get involved with overpair on a rainbow board, when exactly ARE you going to get in there?), but you do not seem to realize that this decision was precipitated by your monumental pf mistake.

You HAVE to raise this up pf to t300 or so. If you are only going to rr pf with KK/AA then you are going to be fished out of every tournament well before the final table.

If UTG repops you pf all in for the rest of his chips, and you are certain of your read, then you can either put him on KK AA and fold, or put him on AK and race or fold. Either way, your decision is easier at this stage.

It seems that you went into this hand without a sound plan (typical for early stages) and failed to consider what your action would be if the action was opened to you on the flop.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
My response is pretty much the same as I posted in People_Mover's thread.

To be honest, this
Quote:
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I flat call in MP with QQ, wanting to see a flop before committing too many chips. BB calls.


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is just bad poker. You ask if your flop lay down was weak (yes, it was - if you don't get involved with overpair on a rainbow board, when exactly ARE you going to get in there?), but you do not seem to realize that this decision was precipitated by your monumental pf mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, this thinking is just bad poker.

Your oversimplifying the situation and ignoring lots of information. You say he has a big pair in position and fails to reraise preflop. Horrible. He flops a big overpair on a rainbow board and folds. Horrible.

What you're forgetting is that preflop, the pot was opened for a good size raise in early position by a tight player. QQ is no longer a certainly monstrous hand, but rather a strong yet speculative one. You have position, take a flop and get some more information before you decide whether or not to play a big pot. If all you do is look at QQ and wet your pants, you're never going to make a final table.

Now notice that the BB also called the big raise. He then made a strong lead out on a J high flop and the TIGHT PREFLOP RAISER comes over the top of him. Yeah you have an overpair on a rainbow board but the action to me is screaming get the hell out. UTG almost certainly has you smoked, and BB also could be well disguising a set or something. You're so rarely ahead here (unless they're known donks) that you have to let it go. If you just see an overpair and a safe board and shove your chips in, you're never going to be more than an above average donk.


-Kings

[tipperdog]

[ QUOTE ]


To be honest, this "I flat call in MP with QQ, wanting to see a flop before committing too many chips. BB calls" is just bad poker. You ask if your flop lay down was weak (yes, it was - if you don't get involved with overpair on a rainbow board, when exactly ARE you going to get in there?), but you do not seem to realize that this decision was precipitated by your monumental pf mistake.

You HAVE to raise this up pf to t300 or so. If you are only going to rr pf with KK/AA then you are going to be fished out of every tournament well before the final table.

If UTG repops you pf all in for the rest of his chips, and you are certain of your read, then you can either put him on KK AA and fold, or put him on AK and race or fold. Either way, your decision is easier at this stage.

It seems that you went into this hand without a sound plan (typical for early stages) and failed to consider what your action would be if the action was opened to you on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did have a plan, and I'll explain why I (still) like my PF call.

1. I have position on the raiser, making my post-flop play easier. If an overcard flops and UTG makes a meaningful bet, I will fold, getting out relatively cheap.

2. If I mini-reraise, as you propose, what value am I getting? If UTG repops all-in, I'm in a real pickle and forfeit my positional advantage.

3. UTG's larger than standard reraise should limit the field. Had UTG mini-raised, I absolutely reraise because I don't want LP players coming in cheap. However, there's not too much risk of that here.

4. If the flop contains no overcards (which happened), I'm planning on raising UTG's expected continuation bet. However, when BB leads and UTG raises, I think AK looks quite unlikely for UTG. If he is making a big play with AK, then hats off, he has outplayed me.

5. You said "If you are only going to rr pf [only] with KK/AA then you are going to be fished out of every tournament well before the final table." I agree. I will often reraise with many hands worse than QQ. However, in this spot (facing a UTG raise from a tight player), I prefer the call.

I think that saying "always reraise with QQ" is just as wrong as "never reraise with QQ." Don't you?

[TheTimeIsUp]

Eve, this is incredibly weak/tight thinking. He is a tight preflop raiser, so you automatically put him on AA/KK? You will never make a final table if you truley think this.

Reraising here is a must. If the original raiser comes over the top of you, you can probably get away from this pretty confidently. But, if you let these guys see a flop with a small-mid pair for cheap, you are setting yourself up for doom.

In conclusion, reraise pf to isolate. Then work your way from there.

[Jax_Grinder]

[ QUOTE ]
2. If I mini-reraise, as you propose, what value am I getting? If UTG repops all-in, I'm in a real pickle and forfeit my positional advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's look at this... Blinds 15/30, UTG to 125. It comes to you with 170 in the pot. A pot-sized raise to t300+ is decidedly NOT a minraise. The value you're getting is that you will get worse hands (AK, AQ, 99, 1010, JJ, possibly QKs) that make that raise up front to come along for the ride on a flat call. Other upside is if he rr all-in, you CAN put him on a bigger hand here if you trust your read. On the flop, this is MUCH harder because *to most internet players* your cold call represents a less-than-premium holding, leading him to reraise the BB on the flop with his AJs against BBs 10J (and his attempt to take the lead from the preflop raiser).

In short, I think your plan involved to much of what you think HE had and too little of what you think he believes YOU have.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that saying "always reraise with QQ" is just as wrong as "never reraise with QQ." Don't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely. But this is NOT one of the EXCEEDINGLY limited scenarios under which I would advocate cold calling 4xBB with QQ in LP.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
Eve, this is incredibly weak/tight thinking. He is a tight preflop raiser, so you automatically put him on AA/KK? You will never make a final table if you truley think this.

Reraising here is a must. If the original raiser comes over the top of you, you can probably get away from this pretty confidently. But, if you let these guys see a flop with a small-mid pair for cheap, you are setting yourself up for doom.

In conclusion, reraise pf to isolate. Then work your way from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I went a little overboard on my response, as a reaction to the ridiculous oversimplification that I responded to. My main objection is to the "always" stance of the poster who said you HAVE to reraise QQ preflop and CANT get away on an undercard rainbow flop. You can.

Reraising and calling preflop are both valid options. The primary disadvantage of reraising is NOT that I'm scared of AA/KK, its that your hand is no longer disguised and you put potential payoff hands on high alert. You'll still face a huge pot vs AA and KK (and maybe AK) but you might scare off TT, plus you basically pot commit yourself with any flop continuation bet (if he calls preflop and checks the flop to you).

Reraising is OK, but I'd prefer it more if the stacks were a little deeper (so that I didn't have to put such a big chunk of my stack in to do it) or smaller (so I could just push).


...and preflop is only half the hand. Don't you agree that given how this flop happened, it's a fold?

-Kings