Pocket Pair Above Middle Pair Heads Up

[cartman]

This scenario usually occurs when I have open raised preflop and been cold-called by someone behind me. I am out of position with a pocket pair above middle pair but below top pair and the flop is J high or higher. Here is a specific example, but I am looking for feedback on this entire "family" of scenarios:

Preflop:
I open raise from UTG+1 with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and get cold called by the button who is too loose preflop (VPIP at least 40) and average aggression postflop.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I bet, he raises, I call.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I bet planning on folding to a raise and check-calling the river if he just calls.


Is this line too weak?
Should I just check-call the turn and the river instead?
Does anyone fold to the flop raise?
Would it change your answer if the flop had been rainbow?
What if the flop were Q high and I had JJ instead?


On a related note. This is about the only situation in which I routinely use the stop n go against an opponent with average aggression unless I have seen him raise for a "free" card a couple of times.

What are some other situations which are good for a stop and go to be my standard approach?

Thanks,
Cartman

[cartman]

I had another situation like this come up last night. I had 99 and the board was T high. After I got raised on the flop I just called him all the way down, reasoning that his raise was less likely to mean top pair because he figured that the flopped missed me. I still don't know how to best handle the above situation(s) however.

Any thought?

Thanks,
Cartman

[me454555]

I usually just toss it to the flop raise in situations like this. People like to cold call w/Ax and popping a pfr is usually a pretty strong move. There is a flush draw on the board, and they will get there about 1/3 of the time. Add in that plus the fact that he could have an ace and your drawing to 2 outs and I'm tossing it. If you have the Kh, I like calling the flop and leading the turn.

If the flop was rainbow, I'd be less likely to call the flop b/c theres less of a chance he's bluffing.

On a Q high flop, I might consider calling down b/c its less likely he called my pfr w/a Q than an A. These plays are very player dependant

[billyjex]

I'll give my thoughts though I too feel lost and weak in these situations.

I'll never fold this flop. As well, the SnGo is a move I just about never employ -- though I see where you're coming from here. I actually like your line to prevent a free card here (if you're ahead.)

A rainbow flop I will just check/call turn and river. I'm less scared of a free card and figure villian has a better piece of the board (but I'm not willing to give up.)

[Lmn55d]

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Is this line too weak?

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Yes, I think you will be folding the best hand too often by doing this. I don't think your opponent will take the free card very often at all, so it seems like you are making this play to save a BB. I don't think this is a great idea for a couple reasons. First, you are often folding the best hand if you fold when he raises. Second, if he has a weaker hand he will often bet both the turn and river, including with a busted gutshot, flush draw, or a flat out bluff. A 6 might fold as well to your turn bet.

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Should I just check-call the turn and the river instead?

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Yes

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Does anyone fold to the flop raise?


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No way, many hands that you are ahead of will raise this flop. Any T, often pocketpairs 22-TT, a 5 sometimes, gutshots,fush draws, random bluff. Way more combos of this than there are of aces.


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Would it change your answer if the flop had been rainbow?

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No. Of course, now it's slightly more likely he has an ace since there is no flush draw. However, there are enough combos you are ahead of to call down IMO.

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What if the flop were Q high and I had JJ instead?

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Get to showdown. Depending on flop texture and opponent, a flop 3bet could be correct to stop opponent from taking a free turn or river. Again I dislike the stopngo because you are folding the best hand too often.

[redbeard]

Lets look at the stop n go move from the villan perspective and see what that does for our hero. (Personally, I like to root for the villan even when I'm the hero it allows me to sleep better at night when I lose -- I think Mike Caro is the only other person I've ever heard of rooting for his opponent in a hand against him.) From the villan's perspective if he was on a draw and trying for a free card he will be stymied by the lead out on the turn. It is my understanding that if you put your opponent on a draw 1/3 of the time that might be a good approximation. So, therefore 1/3 of the time this would be a good play. Now lets look at the other 2/3 of the time and what might happen. If he has only middle pair he may very well have been raising the flop and then been planning to check behind you on the turn and showing it down on the river if unimproved the whole way. A weak move many low level players make. If this were the case then he too will be stymied by the turn stop n go bet. Now on to top pair. With an ace your opponent will raise the flop in position almost every time and have you well behind in the hand, but if you show agression again on the turn it would take a real agressive player to raise again. Like I would have to have either a king or queen kicker to go with that ace. Otherwise with a kicker smaller than that my thought is hey my hand is good enough for one bet on the turn and river, but I'm not to thrilled about more because of the chance I'm behind to a pfr with an ace bigger kicker. So as the villian I'm just calling the turn stop n go bet and betting behind you on the river when you check to me. Your result as the hero is to lose one bet on the turn and river just the same as if you went check/call on the turn and river. And what about those times you have pocket jacks and the flop comes queen high and the villan caught couple of draws with an ace kicker. Again his thought may have been to try for the free card. You aren't giving it to him. So how do you as the hero tragically lose in this play. The only thing I can think of is you lead the turn and for a second consecutive time your opponent "bluff" raises you. How often does this happen? It takes a special breed of degenerate to flat bluff raise twice in a row if you ask me. Now don't get me wrong I know they are out there (in fact they help pay my rent), but I just don't think it happens frequently enough to not use this as your default play in these situations.

[redbeard]

I just don't really believe I can drop this hand on the flop heads up. If there were two opponents and one raised and one called fine give it up, but heads up I'm afraid this move will get you pushed around way too much. Maybe I'm wrong and am just like too many players who don't want to dump their hands that were best to start off, but to me this has too much chance to be ahead to dump here on the flop.

[cartman]

Redbeard,


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If he has only middle pair he may very well have been raising the flop and then been planning to check behind you on the turn and showing it down on the river if unimproved the whole way. A weak move many low level players make. If this were the case then he too will be stymied by the turn stop n go bet

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The tyical opponent in the 5/10(6-max) game who raises the flop with middle pair in this spot bets the turn also. He may check behind on the river, but not usually on the turn. The free card play you describe is usually a draw.


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With an ace your opponent will raise the flop in position almost every time and have you well behind in the hand, but if you show agression again on the turn it would take a real agressive player to raise again. Like I would have to have either a king or queen kicker to go with that ace.

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Many opponents will wait until the turn to raise with top pair as well. They don't necessarily need AK or AQ to raise again either.

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Otherwise with a kicker smaller than that my thought is hey my hand is good enough for one bet on the turn and river, but I'm not to thrilled about more because of the chance I'm behind to a pfr with an ace bigger kicker

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It is a good process to put yourself in the seat of the villain and think about what he is thinking. But remember, you must think LIKE HIM when you are doing that, not like yourself. He may be thinking about when the zookeeper will be back to give him his next meal, not about his kicker issues.

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The only thing I can think of is you lead the turn and for a second consecutive time your opponent "bluff" raises you. How often does this happen? It takes a special breed of degenerate to flat bluff raise twice in a row if you ask me

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The kind that will pure bluff raise an A high flop heads up vs a preflop raiser are also often willing to raise the turn also. This is not the albino tiger rare thing that I think you have the impression it is. What size game do you play? The 5/10 looks like the Wild West compared to 3/6 and below. And it is my understanding that the 10/20 is substantially more aggressive than the 5/10.

Cartman

[redbeard]

I guess I didn't take into consideration the difference between the two levels (3/6 and 5/10). I assume that stims from among other things the difference between starting with ten players v six players. Nonetheless, I thought my points were fairly valid for the 3/6 game. Did you ever play 3/6 Cartman or did you always play 5/10 and 10/20. I did watch those tables at my buddy's place one time and you are right it seemed like the wild west to me too!

[cartman]

I started online with 3/6 and played about 50K hands before I started playing 5/10 6-max. I've never played 10/20, but there are a ton of good players that post on this forum that do.

Cartman