Raising to buy more outs

[skp]

Some time ago, I wrote an article for Poker Digest which outlines various examples where you might want to raise with a draw even though the bet has come from your immediate right in a multiway pot. One of the examples was raising with what appears to be an open-ended draw when in fact 4 of your outs could make someone else a bigger straight when he, with one of those 4 cards, completes a gutshot draw which he might have folded had you raised. The example was an application of the "raise to buy more outs" principle.

Jim Brier and Abdul Jalib were quite critical of that example.

When guys of their stature question a play, I obviously have to question my own thoughts. To this day, I am a little unsure about the proper play in such circumstances.

A hand took place last night where I would like to hear your comments on my flop 3 bet (of course, comments on the other streets are also welcome).

10-20 Kill pot so we are playing 20-40.

I am in the cut-off with 9h7h. The killer is somewhere in middle position. 5 limpers ahead of me including the killer. I limp. Button raises. Both blinds fold. 7 way pot. $295 pot.

Flop: 8hTdQh giving me a flush draw and an open-ended draw but where hitting a Jack could be troublesome.

Early position bet. Killer raises. I 3 bet. Button coldcalls. Other 2 call. 4 way action. $455 pot.

Turn: 9c

Killer bets. I call. Button raises. Early limper folds. Killer and I call.

$795 pot. 3 players.

River: 6c which makes me the idiot straight.

We check to the button. He bets. Killer folds. I make the crying call. He shows KJ and takes the pot.

[Clarkmeister]

I can't think of a compelling arguement to call 2 cold rather than 3 bet on the flop. I think 3 betting is clearly the correct play.

[andyfox]

I too can't see any advantage to merely cold-calling as opposed to the benefits, for the cost of just one small bet, of 3-betting.

I would have raised pre-flop from the cut-off but, as you know, I never (or hardly ever) limp from the cut-off.

Helluva good game.

[skp]

To Clark and Andy (and anyone else):

Suppose the following:

1. There is a good chance that the flop bettor or raiser will 4 bet if I 3 bet.

2. Even if there is no 4 bet, I have no chance of getting a free card on the turn if a blank comes.

Should I still 3 bet i.e. is the idea of trying to get the button to fold Ak (a very likely holding) worth the extra bet?

Put another way:

If you had AK on the button, would you fold for $60 but call for $40?

In your opinion, will most players with AK on the button call for $40 but fold for $60?

[mikelow]

You really have only a heart draw, so just call on the flop. And I would have folded on the river. Even with a large pot, your chances are near zero.

[Ed Miller]

I think this is a very clear flop 3-bet. You have all the flush outs, and a 6 is probably good. A J may also very well be good. I think you are raising for value here... and the fact that you are putting pressure on the button to fold AK makes the 3-bet even better.

[Ed Miller]

You have 9 flush outs, 3 more outs with a 6 (most likely good), and 3 additional outs with a J (less sure.. but still very possibly good). Even if someone has J9 and AK, and all your straight outs are dead... you still have 9 flush outs (unless, of course, you are also drawing dead to a larger flush... in which case you should thank god that he used this improbable parlay of nastiness to take a poker pot from you instead of to spontaneously combust you). You have a more than 50% chance to make a straight or flush by the river... and much of that time, your hand will indeed be good. A raise here is a raise for value, IMHO... so you shouldn't worry about being 4-bet or getting free cards (though getting an option for a free card would be nice). It is just gravy that you can use that raise to drive out a hand that is potentially hogging some of your outs. Raise without fear, I say...

[hillbilly]

especially in a rock-em sock-em style holdem game....don't you really want your draws to be to the nuts? in this kill pot especially? at double the limits? the 220 you lost on this hand is 11 big bets at the 10-20 structure where most of the hands will be played.

now the hand was played in a reasonable fashion and by a good player, and skp i'm sure had a read on his players but i think in this style game, the button is most likely going to play the hand or not, whether its 2 or 3 bets to him on the flop likely won't matter, so why get more money in when you may make your best hand and lose anyway. in a tighter style game the 3 bet makes way more sense for various reasons

skp basically got trapped on every street except maybe the flop 3 bet, i guess the killer had a set or a big heart draw. skp couldn't really fold anywhere and of course had to call on the river, since the button may have just had a set...

maybe it was just one of those unfortunate hands that come up...but do you raise your preflop standards here a little (like andy said raise or fold, where MAYBE that winning KJ hits the muck)but even then the pot becomes so bloated people have odds to call with all sorts of draws...or maybe just fold the flop because it's already 2 bets to you on the flop and the preflop raiser yet to be heard from?

am i crazy or do i just play to much omaha? i just can't see ray or david or mason losing 11 big bets of their 10-20 bankroll here...

please don't take this the wrong way skp i know you are a fine player with way more experience than me and if i'm way off base here i'll be glad to be corrected

[Kevin J]

A very interesting hand! I agree there are times when you can buy yourself more outs, but IMO- this hand is a bit too problematic for this. Probably a bigger advantage of 3-betting is to slow down the action on the turn.

I'll probably get flamed for this one, but I think you could damn near fold the flop if it wasn't for your heart draw. I'm not at all interested in this straight draw given the number of opponents and heavy flop action.

After the nine turns, your straight outs become just a tad better than worthless. Even with the pot this big, I'm a little surprised you called the river.

[Penguin]

Some of the responses have suggested that you could fold to the river bet. Getting 20:1, there is no way I fold against a typical opponent. I think there are more than 1 in 20 ways that the button could get where he is and not have you beat and still bet, e.g. Ah10h, Ah7h, various trips etc.

P.S. In real life I probably call on the flop because of the double bet size. But sitting here, 3 betting looks better both from value and image perspectives.