Tough river. Can I fold this HUGE pot???

droolie · #1 06-14-2005, 11:45 PM

Button was a chronic river bluffer and would take shots at any river scare card if checked to. I even saw him bluff raise a couple rivers one HU the other in a 4-way pot. He was very loose and aggressive on other streets betting bottom pair like it was top pair.

MP is one of the biggest stations ever. Never raises unless she has the nuts. Cold called almost every one of my raises like I was ringing the dinner bell or something.

SB is a typical loose passive.

BB is somewhat of a TAG but I hadn't seen him get out of line.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (15 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (15 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, Button bets, SB folds, BB raises, Hero??

I have no idea why I checked this river other than depression and tilt. I really think I should have led out but the flush card hitting took my balls out from under me (this is classic example of my river pussy syndrome). I knew button would bet if I checked and knew he'd get callers becasue everyone was trying to catch his bluffs at this point but I had been playing tightly and wasn't sure if he'd bluff raise me. I also didn't want to get raised by anybody else....and have to face two more after already investing a river bet. Dumb oh well but when BB raised him I was a bit lost.

Final Pot: 21 BB

steaknshake925 · #2 06-15-2005, 12:45 AM

i dont think you can fold. call and cry

droolie · #3 06-15-2005, 01:12 AM

Just to further clarify why I checked... I was intending to C/R buttons bluff as I was 90% sure he'd bet when checked to and only 10% sure he'd raise as a bluff if I bet. The weak tightie side of me was thinking that if things got crazy before it got back to me I could in theory fold it without wasting a bet...the raise by BB was unexpected...still stupid I know but I forgot to mention that thought.

I also forgot to mention the button was 3-betting and capping with less than lock hands so calling this faces a likely reraise by him.

partygirluk · #4 06-15-2005, 01:21 AM

If BB is a TAG I don't see him playing a flush draw this passively. I think he is making a move, knowing that button likes to bluff. I'd call here, folding if capped.

JerseyTom · #5 06-15-2005, 12:15 PM

Call, getting 18:2. No way you're behind 90% of the time.

If it's capped ack to you, then maybe you can toss.

Tom

Easy E · #6 06-15-2005, 01:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Button was a chronic river bluffer and would take shots at any river scare card if checked to.

I have no idea why I checked this river other than depression and tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you not remember writing the first sentence?

I really think I should have led out but the flush card hitting took my balls out from under me (this is classic example of my river pussy syndrome). I knew button would bet if I checked and knew he'd get callers becasue everyone was trying to catch his bluffs at this point

Sounds as if you made the correct play to me. Would you have expected a bet from you to slow everyone else down?

I would fold to the raise here- there are too many hands out to make me think the BB is playing around after 3-betting preflop and calling through- but if the other poster is correct and you aren't behind 90% of the time here, I really need to overcome my reluctance to playing online.

Since I'm being results-oriented today, what was the result? I'm guessing you made what in retrospect was a bad fold. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

droolie · #7 06-15-2005, 02:29 PM

Did I contradict myself? My point about depression and tilt was that I continually fear the worst and it makes me choose idiotic plays like checking this river. I put my convoluted thought process at the time out there to see if my pussy play in this instance was actually correct given my read.

The reason why I think I was wrong is that I opened myself up to exactly what happened which is being put in a very tough spot and having to try to catch two bluffers in order for my call to be correct and knowing I might have to face a reraise and cap and have to fold anyways.

In an ideal world button bluffs and I get two callers and trap them all with a C/R. For what it's worth I called but I seem to always pay these things off so my question for the better players is should I? It seems like paying this off is correct.

Here's the rest of the action since you're curious....

Hero calls, MP folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has As Kh (high card, ace).
Hero has 9d 9h (three of a kind, nines).
Button has 5c Ks (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 21 BB.

The weird thing is that I had BB on overcards the entire time. His raise was really odd and I could only think he had the suited overcards that made a flush. Got lucky this time I guess.

Easy E · #8 06-15-2005, 04:49 PM

that I continually fear the worst and it makes me choose idiotic plays like checking this river.

This statement can only be true if idiotic play such as what went into this hand is the norm of online play.

that I opened myself up to exactly what happened which is being put in a very tough spot and having to try to catch two bluffers in order for my call to be correct

If you had bet out, and gotten a caller and a raiser, or two raises, behind you, would you have been in a better spot?

And there's no way I CR here unless aggressive bluffing is that habitual... in which case I don't see why this is a tough spot at all, whether you check-call or bet-call.

Is this type of play really the norm online? Wow...

pheasant tail (no 18) · #9 06-15-2005, 05:01 PM

getting 9 to 1 on river looks like a call. If bb is descent he will take a stab more than 10% against a known maniac.

Large field, check is ok on river to see what happens. I need another player involved to think about a fold. Two pair raises bluffer for value here.

droolie · #10 06-15-2005, 05:01 PM

By checking the river I showed weakness/ fear and basically encouraged someone to bluff at me. If I had bet and there was a raise and a 3-bet the decision to fold becomes a little easier because I'm not exactly asking to be bluffed by everybody and so therefore the bets have more validity but yes it's still tough spot. The difference is marginal but I'm afraid I created the opportunities to bluff by checking therefore increaqsing the probability that I'd have to face two bets back to me.

Going for the C/R was read based on button only. It's common for players to bluff at the river when checked to but somewhat rare for them to bluff raise the river, especially into so many players. It usually happens HU or 3-way at most. I'm surprised you've been at 2+2 for so long and not played much online. I assume you're a big B&M guy?