just a question

badbill7 · #1 06-12-2005, 10:44 PM

been trying to find the holes in my game and while they are numerous i have pinned one. i have always counted any overcards on the flop as six outs if the board is uncorodinated. in rereading ssh i have seen this is not true can some of you comment on what is the proper general procedure for counting overcards as outs. i mean do you always count them as half outs or does AK count as four outs ect. i would appreciate the input

silkyslim · #2 06-12-2005, 10:51 PM

You need to consider whether your overs complete someone elses draw, like if you catch the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for your top pair it makes three-to-a-flush on the board or completes a broadway straight draw, etc. Also, consider the possibility that top pair is not the strongest hand even if your card is safe, like if the board is monotone, straighted, or your pair would make someone two pair (see hand quiz #9 flop play pg. 273)

Stuey · #3 06-12-2005, 11:23 PM

I just count them as half outs.

I think it is the backdoor draws that can add value to these hands. I think it is more important to notice the size of the pot and the number of players in the hand, plus your table and relative position before counting the outs in these situations. And I try not to talk myself out of folding, if I start to feel lost I muck it.

The idea that overcards are like weak drawing hands is something I like to think about as I play them. I look for other ways to win cheaply with my hand without needing to count the outs and have pot odds on my side.

I am not saying this is the best way to play, it is just the way I do. And I would be open to changing my ideas. Good post I look forward to what others say on this.

benkath1 · #4 06-13-2005, 02:11 AM

Yeah, what those guys said. It depends. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Take into consideration the texture of the flop, what kind of action the other players are giving, read on your opponnents. If a guy really loves his hand and I'm on the button with AK on a raggedy flop facing a raise and a re raise, I'll hit the muck. But it also depends on who is doing the betting.

Hope this helped.

Ben

caggin · #5 06-13-2005, 03:48 AM

Why would you count AK as more outs (unless you also had a backdoor flush draw or something)? If anything, having an A overcard somewhat increases the likelihood that you're reverse dominated (hitting your A may give someone else 2 pair since Ax is a common holding). 3 outs is kind of an "average" approximation for 2 overcards. You may want to increase it if you think it is unlikely that hitting one of your overcards will also improve an opponent (to better than your top pair), or you may want to decrease it if you think it is likely (some of your overcard outs complete a flush or straight).

badbill7 · #6 06-13-2005, 09:22 PM

the input is nice but i was hoping to get a little more in depth to the question. its obvious that one must take into consideration board texture, conectedness, ones opponents ect. what im particularly interested in is do you attribute and extra out if you have ak because you are less likely to loss with this top pair,and what about lower ended ten jack, also what if your overcards have space between them do we devalue them even more by say a half out or full out. I know overcards are one of the harder things to play with any real consistency or confidence but again some input from others would be helpful. tks

bozlax · #7 06-13-2005, 09:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...do you attribute and extra out if you have ak because you are less likely to loss with this top pair,and what about lower ended ten jack, also what if your overcards have space between them do we devalue them even more by say a half out or full out....

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely...mostly...but not other times...and at some tables, never...it really, uh, what's the word I'm looking for, jeez, it's right on the tip of my tongue, uh, oh, yeah, now I remember:

It depends. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

badbill7 · #8 06-13-2005, 09:43 PM

very helpful and insightful

It depends.

bozlax · #9 06-13-2005, 09:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
very helpful and insightful

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but it's the answer. I don't think you can really expect people to enumerate instances of playing overcards and tell you how many outs they attribute to them in each instance. In short, the question as asked is unanswerable.

If you were to post some hands, it would be a lot easier to give you an analysis.

no1super2001 · #10 06-14-2005, 01:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
been trying to find the holes in my game and while they are numerous i have pinned one. i have always counted any overcards on the flop as six outs if the board is uncorodinated. in rereading ssh i have seen this is not true can some of you comment on what is the proper general procedure for counting overcards as outs. i mean do you always count them as half outs or does AK count as four outs ect. i would appreciate the input

[/ QUOTE ]

This may help. Discounting Outs