I got yelled at for this hand. PP 30/60

bobdibble · #1 06-12-2005, 03:08 AM

I've only been at the table for a few orbits and my reads are not too solid.

BB is a semi agressive.
MP1 is a total donk.
I didn't have a read on CO.

Even though I don't know where a raise will come from, I decide to lead across the field. I've got an OESD and my Q is probably good for 1 or 2 outs, I have a weak BD flush.. I have craploads of equity.

I wasn't too happy to see BB raise, but don't mind terribly seeing the two cold calls, although, it makes me wonder if my outs are tainted.

MP and CO cold called, so I expect that they will probably call 2 more. I'm thinking 2 pair, sets, lower straight draws, etc are all possible, so my outs are not necessarily tainted to the point that I don't have equity for a pump.. so I pump it up.

They fold for 2 more, but I am happy about that too as it may have cleaned up some outs in the event of runner-runner spades, maybe knocked out a KQ, etc.

Now, when I improve on the river, and BB calls, he flips out. Apparently, my 3-bet made him put me on a different hand. He blasted me for making the 3-bet, telling me I was stupid for loosing customers on my draw, etc...

Thoughts on the 3-bet or any other part of the hand?

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, MP1 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Dazarath · #2 06-12-2005, 04:24 AM

A few things I'd like to point out:
If you ignore the actual results, I usually feel, with a flop like that and with that many people in, you're likely to chop if a 6 falls, and you're likely to be good if a J falls (not only that, you'll get action from anyone with a T). So you may want to decrease the value of your '6' outs as well and increase the value of your 'T' outs. I'm also usually more hesitant to pump a straight draw on a 2-flush board like this (with 3 others in, 2 of them calling 2 bets cold), as your 8 outs may very well be 6.

I think with those two things combined, I'd personally be pretty happy that two people called cold, and I'd just call myself. But I don't hate a 3-bet.

I'm confused about a few things you said in your post as well. I would not be happy to see BB raise, but I would be ecstatic to see the two others call cold. Also, you said that you were happy when the two folded after the cap. I understand that your outs have now been cleaned up, but it seems to me that your draw would be more profitable with more people in, even if you lose a couple outs. Also, once they folded, your pump became slightly -EV. Or am I misunderstanding something here?

imported_piki · #3 06-12-2005, 07:30 AM

Who knows, maybe he got rid of someone with J7. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't think pump is all that bad as you might really be cleaning up queens too.

-pix

legend42 · #4 06-12-2005, 01:53 PM

If the BB had anything but JT, he's the one who donked up the hand. And if he did have JT, he's just whining about the bad beat, so forget about it.

You played the hand fine except for the river. Unless you were really certain he had JT, going for a check-raise there is quite wrong. Just bet out and call a raise.

Dazarath · #5 06-12-2005, 02:49 PM

I see it this way, in *most* cases, nobody with a T and especially nobody with a flush draw is getting out. So it's close to impossible that he's cleaning up the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] as outs, ever. It's unlikely that he's cleaning out the 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] as full outs either. For him to be cleaning up his Q outs, someone would already have to have another Q, and so he's gaining 2 outs.

At this point, the two options are, would you have rather 6-8 outs in a 4-way pot, or 8-10 outs in a 2-way pot? In the first situation, you're more likely to have an equity edge or be close to breakeven. In the second situation, you obviously have an equity deficiency. I'd take an equity edge in a larger pot over an equity deficiency (with more outs) in a smaller pot. But I guess it's just preference on playstyle.

bobdibble · #6 06-12-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At this point, the two options are, would you have rather 6-8 outs in a 4-way pot, or 8-10 outs in a 2-way pot? In the first situation, you're more likely to have an equity edge or be close to breakeven. In the second situation, you obviously have an equity deficiency. I'd take an equity edge in a larger pot over an equity deficiency (with more outs) in a smaller pot. But I guess it's just preference on playstyle.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the crux of my mixed fealings about the others folding to the cap. However, at the time I 3-bet, the pot was already pretty big, and I'd like to win it. I think I continue to 3-bet in this situation in the future, and can feel good about either folds or overcalls.

helpmeout · #7 06-12-2005, 06:31 PM

Yuck you are way overvaluing your hand.

Do you not see the 2 flush on the board as well?

MrTeddyKGB · #8 06-12-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts on the 3-bet or any other part of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the flop three bet is bad for three reasons.

1. It is very unlikley anyone will fold for two more on the flop after calling 2 cold results not withstanding. So your three bet has to be for value only and as some have mentioned the flush draw and a possible chop with a 6 your equity may not be as good as it seems.

2. You are out of position and can't take the free card even if it is heads up.

3. If you get a J on the turn you are hopeing for a multiway pot with another 10 out there.

the checkraise on the river is bad also seems like a bet three bet. too easy for him to check behind.

bobdibble · #9 06-12-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yuck you are way overvaluing your hand.

Do you not see the 2 flush on the board as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
the two cold calls... makes me wonder if my outs are tainted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point is taken, it isn't certain that there is a flush draw out there, so my Q outs somewhat balance this out, no?

legend42 · #10 06-12-2005, 09:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It is very unlikley anyone will fold for two more on the flop after calling 2 cold results not withstanding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I see a lot of fish call the first 2 cold, then fold for 2 more- provided there is a made hand like a straight or flush already out there, and they know they might drawing almost dead. Hands like Q8 and A6 will often act this way, and even those with a lone jack chasing a gutshot are usually ignorant to pot odds and often decide to cut their losses at a certain point.

And like the OP said, it ain't the worst thing if they call another 2.