Couple of turn heads up - stop and gos

Quercus · #1 06-10-2005, 01:06 AM

I liked these plays when I made them, now I can't decide.

Both villains are loose, average aggression. The fact that this is 6 max is largely irrelevant, though my experience is that 6max players are more capable of finding their fold button than full ring players.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets...

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, MP calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets, SB folds, Hero calls, MP folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets...

billy51 · #2 06-10-2005, 02:15 AM

I like them both. I like the first one (67s hand) better than the AK hand. You could have very easily induced a bluff by checking the flop heads up and CO could be betting with a couple of unimproved big cards.

On the AK hand, after CO bets the flop into 3 opponents I might be a little more inclined to give him credit for at least a pair. Then again, the pot is kind of big for shorthanded, so your stop-and-go doesn't have to work as often (i.e. you don't have to catch him bluffing as often) for it to be profitable.

I personally don't use the stop-and-go as often as I should. I really hope there is some discussion about this thread that could help me think through these situations.

LoaferGee12 · #3 06-10-2005, 02:35 AM

Why didn't you check-raise the flop in the first?

Bodhi · #4 06-10-2005, 02:38 AM

Which is a good question because a check-raise seems to have more merit than a stop-n-go simply because it stands to make more money.

Entity · #5 06-10-2005, 02:41 AM

I like #1, don't like #2.

ArturiusX · #6 06-10-2005, 02:49 AM

2 would be very interesting vs a thinking two plus twoer, but thats about the only person I try it on ever.

Aaron W. · #7 06-10-2005, 03:14 AM

This is perhaps just semantics, but doesn't a stop-and-go require you to bet the flop (so that you actually *STOP* and go, compared with *NEVER START* and go)?

Quercus · #8 06-10-2005, 08:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is perhaps just semantics, but doesn't a stop-and-go require you to bet the flop (so that you actually *STOP* and go, compared with *NEVER START* and go)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. I'm not sure what the "right" terminology for this play would be.

Donkbet?

Quercus · #9 06-10-2005, 08:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like #1, don't like #2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to mix plays like this into my game but I don't think I'm yet on solid footing for when to apply them.

In hand 1, the 9 is an overcard to a lot of small PP that CO might have raised and an undercard to a lot of A-junk. I'm not so worried about small PP, but I'd hate to see another paint card fall and I'd be happy to take this hand down now.

It also encourages villain to think twice before autobetting junk.

At least, that's what I was thinking.

Hand 2 is different because villain limped preflop, I have nothing but high card strength, and the 2 is a nonsensical card to bet out on. At least, I think that's what the problem with it is.

Entity had a post a while back about doing the right play for the wrong reasons. I'm hoping to get a discussion that can help me understand when this donkbet is the right play and why.