Critique my bust out hand...LIMIT tourney

[tipperdog]

I feel as though I butchered this hand pretty badly, but I'm not sure where I should have gotten away. Your thoughts welcome. This is a Party $55 LIMIT tourney.

~350 started, down to 21. We are in the money. There is a jump in the pay ladder for 20th, but not a huge one. Real money is at the final table, of course. My once mighty stack has dwindled to T5,200. Average is ~11,000. The BB this hand is an oustanding limit tourney player--aggressive, changing gears frequently; a real pain in my [censored]. UTG this hand seems a tight/conservative player. MP is new to the table. Everyone has me outchipped.

Blinds are 500/1,000 (stakes 1K/2K). We are 7-handed. I have T4,800 after posting the SB and am dealt 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG limps, MP limps. This is the first unraised pot we've had in some time. I complete, figuring the 7:1 pot odds are too tempting (an error?). BB checks.

Flop comes 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, BB checks, UTG bets and MP raises. I think the risk of being caught in a "raising war" with the very conservative UTG player is low. With my 6-8 outs, I call the 2-bets cold (mistake?), hoping to get lucky on the turn in what's becoming a huge pot. The BB also cold calls 2 (flush draw?) and UTG calls.

The turn is the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I'm now looking at a 2-flush, paired board [2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] in a 12K pot. I have T2,800 left. I check, BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets T2,000. I figure that I have to call here. If if miss the river I'll give up and fold into the next step on the pay ladder, and if I hit, I'm back in the game.

I call, BB check-raises, UTG folds, MP calls, and I call all-in for my last T800. The river blanks. BB shows 33 (flopped set, turned boat). MP2 had QJ.

Comments?

[schwza]

(caveat: i've never intentionally played a limit MTT)

i'd muck pre-flop. your stack is not deep enough for you to get paid off really well those times you do flop two pair or trips, which is most of what you're playing for.

i'd bet the flop. the 2 and 3 are unlikely to help, and a 2-overcard hand probably raises instead of limps. given your check and the action, i think it's close between calling and folding.

i'd fold the turn. you're almost certainly drawing to at most 6 outs, and you could be drawing dead. it's a tempting price, but you're only ~1/8 to hit.

[pokergrader]

I would muck this pre-flop in this situation. With the stakes these high, it really isn't worthwhile taking a shot with this hand. Because in reality, what kind of flop are you looking for? The only flop that really seals the deal is a trips or two pair board, which is unlikely to occur. A single pair in this situation does you little good and a draw loses a lot of value due to the lack of implied odds (as the above poster said).

The reason the muck is good is because you aren't in blind peril for another 5 hands or so, so you can at least find a decent hand to gun it with. If you get a Qx - Ax, you can raise it PF (or 3-bet their raise), and hopefully get yourself heads up with another player. Then you have a decent to good shot of doubling up, which puts you right back in contention.

But basing it on your play, I think after you see that flop you are stuck in this hand, and certainly after you call the raise on the flop you cant get away from it.

[HiatusBackOn]

I dont understand the call to begin with, if u are thinking about the payjump then you are pretty much praying with 45off. With 2800 left calling off 2000 is no good here because u can probably float to the next payjump or find a better hand to double on.

[michaliv]

I don't think that the preflop complete was that bad, unless you really want to make the next pay up. If you want to do that you should fold until you get there. After the flop hits, I would have most likely bet out and put the rest of my chips in by the turn.

[Harv72b]

If it was suited that's one thing, but 45o is just not worth a preflop completion in this scenario, particularly with you as the short stack, having just gotten through the blinds, and on the bubble to the next pay level. Fold it preflop--as was already mentioned, even if you do hit your monster flop, your stack isn't big enough to get the kind of payoff you'd need to compensate for the preflop call. And even if you flop 2 pair, that's hardly a safe hand vs. 3 opponents in a limit structure.

Once you're in the hand, I don't greatly mind calling the 2 cold on the flop, but I just don't think you can call off nearly 70% of your stack with a potentially counterfeited draw on the turn.

[durron597]

I think you have to fold the turn when the board pairs against three opponents. You are drawing dead too often to stay in this pot.

[CardSharpCook]

Fold PF, fold the flop, fold the turn. But the good news is it is close!!! 45o is not good enough to play for a half bet. On the flop, you don't know if all your outs are clean, nor do you know about possible redraws. I can call this for a single bet, but I'm not happy calling two. I am still geting odds IF all my outs are clean, but in a tourney, I wait for a better opportunity. On the turn, you may be drawing dead, you may not have all the outs you think you have, and you only have a 16% chance of hitting (if your outs exist). However, with such a big pot, it is tough to let go.

CSC

one more thing, try not to include results in the OP.

[bobman0330]

This is bad.

Preflop:
A 5 is not a good card. A 4 is not a good card. 54 is not a good hand unless you have CHIPS, which you do not. Fold preflop for more than 10% of your stack, pot odds or no.

Flop:
I would probably bet. It's hard to put your opponents on a hand, but odds are as high as 40 or 50% they whiffed, and will fold the flop or turn. With a 4k pot, you have to take a stab. checking is ok though. once it's 2 bets back though, a fold is better, i think. If you call here, you're committed for all your chips, and you're out of the tournament unless you hit and your hand is good, probably less than 30%. Not a good position to be in.

Turn. Folding is not good, unless the money jump is worth it. it isn't though. At this point, chip face-value is of no import. Your choices are: fold, get 20th; bust get 21st; call and win, have a stack. The math is easy. Call