Troubling KK hand, with a nasty flop.

Jonny · #1 06-08-2005, 08:36 PM

Villain is 58/16/2 over 65 hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Button ($1273.5)
Hero ($2055.75)
BB ($1318)
UTG ($544.5)
MP ($1000)
CO ($1308.5)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $5.
2 folds, CO raises to $40, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $145, 1 fold, CO calls $110.

Flop: ($310) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $225, CO calls $225.

Turn: ($760) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $250, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $1010

I felt I had to bet the flop to see if I could take it down if he had say 77-99. On the turn his bet smells of a boat, or mabye AK. I think this is the correct spot to give up, right?

Jonny · #2 06-08-2005, 08:57 PM

Is this a check/fold on the turn once called on the flop unless an A or a K comes?

Yeti · #3 06-08-2005, 09:00 PM

Looks good bro.

xorbie · #4 06-08-2005, 09:14 PM

Why are you trying to push 77 out on the flop? 99 is the only hand with outs against you really (and only 6, plus you have a redraw). Everything else is ahead or way behind.

Jonny · #5 06-08-2005, 09:21 PM

exactly, im not trying to push them out so much, but I need to at least stab at this horrible flop and try to take it down.

piki · #6 06-09-2005, 09:42 AM

I dont like your turn check unless you are going to CR. I dont see myself folding this hand, though I love to get my chips in the middle. I think I would have overbet the flop, it may not have made a difference. Though I try yo get my opponets to be afraid of a CR, so my turn check would elicit more information.

Jonny · #7 06-09-2005, 11:51 AM

After the flop call, what can I possibly beat, except MABYE AA if he smooth-called my RR preflop? TT-QQ I am toast (on the turn) and way behind on the flop. AK is owning me, and I'd be drawing to 1 out if he has that. What hand do you put him on JAA to be c/r all in on the turn? AQ?

piki · #8 06-09-2005, 01:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After the flop call, what can I possibly beat, except MABYE AA if he smooth-called my RR preflop? TT-QQ I am toast (on the turn) and way behind on the flop. AK is owning me, and I'd be drawing to 1 out if he has that. What hand do you put him on JAA to be c/r all in on the turn? AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not a hand I go into thinking I am behind. The flop does not give me a read on my opponents hand, only his betting will do that. I want to put him in a position to define his hand. I do this by defining my hand. I want him to think I have QQ. If he calls an overbet of the flop, I know a lot more where I stand. Depending on Villian, he could be on a range on hands. Could he call your raise with AQs? What about 99-55? Is he a calling station? Will he bet for value? I dont get KK a lot, so I am not willing to be on the defensive so quick. If he flopped two pair, you still have a number of outs.

What I dont like about your flop bet is I feel you advertised the flop didnt help you. I think someone calling here could only interested in your turn play. What is your table image, tight passive? I just think you need to bet out on the flop harder. I would be more inclined to fold to a raise on the turn if you did.

One could argue him calling your preflop raise, and betting out ~1/3 of the pot on the turn after your check should be enough for you to fold, Im just not one of them. If you have a read on Villian, thats cool, I can see getting away from the hand. I just dont see it just from the betting.

This is one of tha many reasons I dont play shorthanded. I find it very difficult to tell strong hands from weak ones. He could have called preflop with 77 putting you on AK. This is why I think it is so read dependant.

Jonny · #9 06-09-2005, 03:49 PM

I highly doubt he would call with any pair below 9's (giving OESD) on the flop after my big PF reraise. The worst hand I could have given the action is KK, then AA. Other possibilities for me are sets or AK for the flopped straight.

What would an overbet accomplish more than my bet? If he calls, do I go into check fold mode?

xorbie · #10 06-09-2005, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
exactly, im not trying to push them out so much, but I need to at least stab at this horrible flop and try to take it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, take it down against what? Do you think two pair is folding? You don't want a hand like AQ out, a hand with a K in it is unlikely and a set is clearly going to be sticking around.

I think if you want to take it down a flop check raise is the way to go.