Protecting Overcards?

mojobluesman · #1 06-08-2005, 11:37 AM

This is the 1st time I tried this.

I figured I had about 4 1/2 outs (6 overcards and a backdoor STR8) when it got to me on the flop. That was more than enough for a call, but I figured I was better off raising to try to buy some outs (perhaps by knocking out some weak As).

That worked out well. The turn was no help. Now I had 3 outs (maybe a little more) for the overcards.

1 BB to me, I folded. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] It seemed right at the borderline to me, but in hindsight with implied odds maybe I should have called.

Obviously, the key question is not whether I would have won or not, but how many outs should I have considered my 2 overcards worth????

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG+1 posts a blind of $1. Hero posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds, UTG calls.

River: (11 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB

cold_cash · #2 06-08-2005, 11:47 AM

I think the flop play is okay, but I think you're underestimating how much your hand is worth on the turn.

I'll bet you have a full 6 outs here a lot of the time.

Losfer · #3 06-08-2005, 11:52 AM

I'm calling that turn. That board is not at all scary. You will see 2-pair rarely here, so the only hand your over cards have to fear if they hit is a set. I don't think that is worth discounting 2 outs.

I like the rest of the hand.

vulturesrow · #4 06-08-2005, 12:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is the 1st time I tried this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fun isnt it? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I figured I had about 4 1/2 outs (6 overcards and a backdoor STR8) when it got to me on the flop. That was more than enough for a call, but I figured I was better off raising to try to buy some outs (perhaps by knocking out some weak As).

[/ QUOTE ]

Im with cold cash. I give you 6 full outs. Think about why this is a good flop. Its a rainbow, not particularly coordinated, and you have two overs to top pair. No one showed any aggression preflop so you are probably not dominated. The raise was perfect. Already a big pot, so you do what gives you the best shot of winning it. In this case, its raise.

[ QUOTE ]
1 BB to me, I folded. It seemed right at the borderline to me, but in hindsight with implied odds maybe I should have called

[/ QUOTE ]

Rainbow board so all your outs are clean in that respect. Even if you discount based on the possibility that someone has say QJ, you still have the odds to call easy. Implied odds are just an aside at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, the key question is not whether I would have won or not, but how many outs should I have considered my 2 overcards worth????

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, 6 clean outs easy. No straight/flush draws (realistically). No preflop aggression, the flop play screams top pair absent any previous evidence of tricky play with set/2-pair.

topspin · #5 06-08-2005, 12:07 PM

I'm calling the turn. The odds of the blank improving MP1's hand are miniscule, so I think he's just donking around with top pair and my outs are good.

Womble · #6 06-08-2005, 12:11 PM

You only need 4 outs to call the turn, and you easily have that when discounting.

You have obviously read SSH since they recommend overs as 1.5 outs each but you have to think about the board and if your overs are worth slightly more

irishpint · #7 06-08-2005, 12:12 PM

i think aall your outs are clean, thus 6. Good flop raise. I think i call the turn. how could that card have helped mp1? You would have known to bet the river, i assume.

mojobluesman · #8 06-08-2005, 12:20 PM

Obviously I need to re-read the counting outs section of SSH. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Thanks for the help.

mojobluesman · #9 06-08-2005, 12:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i call the turn. how could that card have helped mp1?

[/ QUOTE ]

It didn't help MP1, but it cost my my 1 1/2 out backdoor STR8. The problem was in counting the overcard outs. I still don't have that very clear in my head even though I understand the general issues.

Duerig · #10 06-08-2005, 01:08 PM

You have more than 4 1/2 outs. I think you probably have at least 6. You're still drawing on this flop and you don't want to raise everyone else out of the pot. I call the flop, and if you still have odds (which you will) I call the turn. Bet the river.