Is this WA/WB?

KingOtter · #1 06-08-2005, 12:29 AM

Or just plain a bad flop decision?

No real read on villain, other than he seems extremely tight. He's generally been passive thus far, too. But I think I had been at this table as I was getting a lot of straight draws tonight.

I think I made 2 major mistakes in this hand:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

First major mistake. 3 limpers and I raise? Is 99 good enough to do that with? I'm thinking not. I'm not going to make anyone fold, and I'm not isolating anyone. The limpers will all call and someone is going to get a draw.

Flop: (10.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Second major mistake. I'm certainly not getting the odds to call on a 2 outter. And I've got nothing else (oh, a double-gapper BDSD, worth what, .25 outs?). MP1 is really quite passive and I've seen him call down with a pair of aces (until he hit his flush on the river).

At the time I thought, 'If he doesn't have a Jack, my hand is good on the raggedy board. But I don't want to pay a lot of money to find out.' Basically WA/WB, right? So I called, expecting to call down if the turn and river were relatively blank. The hand plays itself from here.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises, BB folds, MP1 calls.

River: (11.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 19.75 BB

Thoughts? Criticisms?

KO

Weatherhead03 · #2 06-08-2005, 12:43 AM

I usually would raise 99 here..more of a value bet. Second I think you should call the flop, you very well could still have the best hand. MP1 could have bet with 2 overcards KQ maybe. After you hit your 9 its pretty standard.

Emmitt2222 · #3 06-08-2005, 12:43 AM

I think you are really misunderstanding what WA/WB is. This only occurs when you are HU and it doesn't involve pocket nines. The most likely application is when you have pocket K's and you the 3bet villian and he caps, an A falls on the flop, you should just call down because you want him to bluff if he has a worse hand and lose less when you are behind. So just to clear that up, this isnt even close to a WA/WB situation.

The pf raise is really good because you most likely have an equity edge to push and you really want that button also because that gives you position for the rest of the hand. Although limping isnt that bad, I like raising much much more most of the time.

The part where you did go wrong is on the flop. You have a bet and two callers in front of you on a relatively drawless board so it looks like there is a good chance you are behind especially since you said he is tight passive. That leaves you with about 2.5 outs to your bd straight draw and set outs which is not enough to call with. Perhaps there may be some reason to peal if you were closing the action but that is not even the case here.

The important thing is that you remembered to spike the set and then fill up on the river so the rest of the hand plays itself.

scotty34 · #4 06-08-2005, 01:13 AM

If you say that villain is extremely tight, and passive, I think you have to give him credit for a hand here. My guess is that he has KJ/AJ/QJs. With this kind of a read, I think I lay this down on the flop especially after 2 callers, as you really aren't getting odds to peel. Pretty standard after spiking your set.

Just so you know, this is not WA/WB at all. First of all, that is a concept that applies to heads up play. Second of all, though you may be way behind, you certainly are not way ahead. Way ahead is when your opponent is drawing to 2 outs or less. He certainly could have a lot more than 2 in this scenario.

milesdyson · #5 06-08-2005, 01:23 AM

I raise preflop, too.

Folding the flop is best, too. Very passive bettor and two callers on J47r flop. There's also no way against a very passive player that you should call a bet on every street. Be aware of the huge distinction between what a passive player will value bet and what they will call bets with.

ClaytonN · #6 06-08-2005, 02:37 AM

Standard

KingOtter · #7 06-08-2005, 09:33 AM

Thanks all... soon as I hit call I thought that was an oops.

I hate it when the cards reward my bad play.

KO

davelin · #8 06-08-2005, 11:01 AM

WA/WB is generally a HU line.

bozlax · #9 06-08-2005, 11:48 AM

[grunch]

I raise PF to get the button, and to swell the pot. With 3 limpers 99 is going to be more like a small pair than a large one, but it's large enough that you want the pot bigger, and you definitely want the button.

Now with the pot so large, I think you can peel one on the flop. How many hands do you have on Villan? If it's not a large number, then he could easily be getting chippy with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], something like that (it's the way I'd play those hands).

All in all, I think I play it exactly the way you did. Now I'm going to go see how many people advocate raising the flop.

[/grunch]

bozlax · #10 06-08-2005, 11:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate it when the cards reward my bad play.

KO

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I LOVE that! I wouldn't have been able to buy my new camcorder if it weren't for that.