The concept of "deserve"

alexd231232 · #1 06-05-2005, 11:26 PM

I am a poker player, just starting out, may i add, who basically has gotten all his odds from the percentages on TV. From these percentages, i seem to have developed a very strong problem with what i believe is the concept of deserving to win a hand preflop. For example, if i had A9 and someone had A6 or something, and then he flops a set of 6s, i feel that this shouldnt have happened and i deserve to win the hand because of the overwhelming majority that i should have won it preflop. Sure, everyone thinks this way. But then when, staying with this example, i catch a bigger boat with runner-runner 9's, i feel this is right and i deserve to have won it, because the PF percentages said so.

I'm not sure if this is all exactly making any sense, but i was curious as to how you guys feel about how much percentage plays into your mental, psychological play.

Furthermore, it's gotten to the point where I feel bad and it puts me on an almost tilt after i beat someone when i shouldnt have. For example, at a small home game, i was in the BB and we started out with 17 dollars in chips, .20/.40 blinds. UTG raises 1.50 and gets one caller, table folds to me. I look down at K6s and figure it could be a 60/40 situation since he woulda played AK or KK's differently. Flop comes K Q 6, turn a blank, and river a K. He goes all in, flips over AK, and realizes he has lost to my boat. Afterwards i felt pretty lousy knowing that he did everything right and i won the hand just cause of pure stupid luck. Anyone else have similar feelings to this when they pull a beat on someone.

Should i not be letting how the cards fall affect my play so much? What do you guys think

A_C_Slater · #2 06-05-2005, 11:34 PM

They guy that bets $100 on number 23 in roulette doesn't deserve to win either. But it has to happen sometime.

alexd231232 · #3 06-05-2005, 11:41 PM

I completely understand it has to happen, i mean its not like the perecentages are even that horrific, not like 99-1. The point is, i feel like i'm doing an injustice to the game by, well, wronging it.
I'm not sure if anyone is really gonna understand what i'm saying here, but it probably happens often, ya know.

A_C_Slater · #4 06-06-2005, 12:10 AM

It is not wronging the game in the same way that the guy winning when he bets on 23 would wrong the game of roulette. There are no absolutes in poker. There are no wrong moves. Information is incomplete. If you turned your hand face up and it was A9 and the guy still decided to call a huge overbet all in with A6 it is still no different than the guy knowingly making a longshot wager on roulette. I think you want poker to be a game akin to someting as deep and profound as chess, but it simply isn't.

alexd231232 · #5 06-06-2005, 12:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It is not wronging the game in the same way that the guy winning when he bets on 23 would wrong the game of roulette. There are no absolutes in poker. There are no wrong moves. Information is incomplete. If you turned your hand face up and it was A9 and the guy still decided to call a huge overbet all in with A6 it is still no different than the guy knowingly making a longshot wager on roulette. I think you want poker to be a game akin to someting as deep and profound as chess, but it simply isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could very well be right...I am a chess player as a matter of fact.

IcarusFalling · #6 06-06-2005, 12:16 AM

the 20% is the time he hits his 6 or his trips.. or his two pair.. or any of the above.. the rest of the time you'll win and a % of it you'll tie.. but youll never know when you have a hand truely dominated so when you both just have ace high one can bluff another out.. there are many more factors than just the % of times won

pzhon · #7 06-06-2005, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For example, if i had A9 and someone had A6 or something, and then he flops a set of 6s, i feel that this shouldnt have happened and i deserve to win the hand because of the overwhelming majority that i should have won it preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not necessarily harmful to have an idea of deserving to win. However, it can be harmful to have an inaccurate or inconsistent measure that clouds your judgement.

If all of the money goes in preflop, you deserve to get only about 68% of the pot. The player with A6 deserves to get 32% of the pot.

If all of the money goes in on the river when you are behind, you don't deserve to win, at least by this measure.

Be careful that many people start to tilt when they lose a pot they felt they deserved to win. Since they lost, they didn't deserve to win 100% of the pot, but they overlook that. They also overlook the fact that they didn't deserve to win the whole pot when they flopped a decent hand, and this holds up.

chipstacks · #8 06-06-2005, 02:22 AM

I am still a relative newcomer to the game as well so take what I say with a grain of salt.

You seem overly obsessed with PF percentages. Poker is such a deep and complex game that to narrow down the concept of who deserves a pot to the two hole cards you are dealt seems like a flawed preconception of the game. Preflop is just one part, if you would like to continue focusing on just that one portion and ignore any grief post-flop play entails perhaps you would be better suited at playing high-low or war.

For myself I believe whoever has played their cards correctly(including bluffing/bullying/slow playing) in the given circumstance deserves the pot. Even the guys who play stupid and go in with 6To and end up making their fullhouse on the turn and river to beat someone who flopped a straight or flush, deserve the pot. That kind of play will bankrupt them real fast but they are bound to catch some ridiculous draws on their bankroll freefall. Something like this happened to me tonight, I flopped a full house bet aggressively only to lose to someone who caught a turn and river card to give them a higher full house. I just laughed to myself and said i love this game.

All the different play styles and shocking outcomes add texture to the game, and make it truly entertaining. Who wants to go down to the river and know they are only facing the top ten preflop hands because those are the hands that deserve the pot.

IMO having such a rigid concept of 'deserve' is dangerous for two reasons. You might not fold your 2nd best AA or AK because you believe you are entitled to the pot, this will cost you money. Finally like phzon mentioned, you are susceptible to tilt when you lose a pot that you feel you deserved for whatever reason you've constructed, no matter how logical.

AaronBrown · #9 06-06-2005, 02:28 PM

"Deserve" is an important concept, but should be stripped of its emotional content. If you win a pot when you had a negative expectation, you have to treat it as a mistake and adjust your play accordingly. If you lose a pot when you had a positive expectation, you should stay the course. You like both outcomes, because they encourage other people to play badly.

ToolMan · #10 06-06-2005, 03:37 PM

Gambling is about odds. Not individual pots, but results over the long haul. Sometimes you will get paid off when you make a bad bet or call. Sometime you will lose when you make a good one.

In the long run your results will be equal to the sum of your good decisions minus your bad decisions.

Poker is a very complex game and there is much to consider to make good decisions. For example, you could have the best starting hand in poker, AA. You would still be a favorite to LOSE if up against many opponents who play badly and will stay in the hand no matter what. Their cumulative hands outweigh your better starting position.

Never fall in love with a hand. Never feel bad about winning. You'll lose your share too.