Raise with TP nut low draw?

GooperMC · #1 06-05-2005, 07:10 PM

Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 callers, I raise, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Check, check, player to my right (villain) bets, I raise, SB folds, BB calls, fold, fold, villain calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, villain bets, I call.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, villain bets, I fold, SB folds.

I think my play here is pretty standard but my version of "standard" sometimes needs a little correction.

bodie · #2 06-05-2005, 07:34 PM

I probably would have folded on the turn when the flush was enabled and you're still drawing for a low card, also your remaining low could have been counterfeited if the wrong low card came.
I personally wouldn't have raised this before the flop from MP, but that's just me. I don't like giving away my cards to the entire table so predictably.

Tailgunner · #3 06-05-2005, 08:25 PM

He did raise preflop... I'd have been more concerned about the SB folding on the flop and still calling down to the river though (lol, j/k.. I'm sure it was a typo)

Even implied odds have you calling 1 to win 1.5... not nearly good enough to see the river on an almost certainly split and probably scooped pot. Fold the turn.

gergery · #4 06-05-2005, 08:54 PM

i count 10 sb in preflop, then 16 sb on flop
so 8 bb on turn then villain bets so 9bb. If you call that makes 10bb, and if you get half thats 5bb to win, minus the 1 you put in.

So you getting 4:1 for the low half of the pot. You need 15 of 45 unseen cards, which is 2:1 for low. You almost have odds to call even if he flashes you his 23xx with hearts. So unless i'm missing something, folding the turn is terrible.

--Greg

Buzz · #5 06-05-2005, 08:56 PM

Gooper - I like a call much better than a raise on the second betting round.

(I also like a call better than a raise from your position on the first betting round).

Buzz

GooperMC · #6 06-05-2005, 09:17 PM

Here is some more explanation of my play.

Pre-flop:
I had two total rocks sitting to my left (one had a VP$IP of 9 and the other was 13) and the SB and BB were both very loose. I figured that the two players to my left were most likely going to fold even if I limped and the SB / BB were going to call regardless of what I did. In that situation I might as well raise because it puts more money in the pot and it probably ends up with the same amount of players in the pot.

Flop:
Nobody likes this raise? I don’t think that my A is going to hold up unless I can get a bunch of people out of this pot. Am I overvaluing TP here? I just feel like a call resigns my hand to be a low draw only.

Turn:
I am more then getting odds to call here with just my low draw. I also have some possible trips / two pair scoop outs. I think that folding here would be criminal.

Thanks for all the input so far. I guess that my "standard" wasn’t really standard after all. I am really interested to hear more opinions on the flop raise, and for those who don’t like it can you give me more explanation of why you don’t like it.

GooperMC · #7 06-05-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Gooper - I like a call much better than a raise on the second betting round.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you please elaborate on this? I find myself agreeing with almost everything that you post here (even if I didn’t think what you were thinking before I read your post) so I would appreciate you expanding on the reasons to call instead of raise the flop.

bodie · #8 06-06-2005, 12:45 AM

"I am more then getting odds to call here with just my low draw. I also have some possible trips / two pair scoop outs. I think that folding here would be criminal"

I don't know that it would be "criminal" - and honestly I would probably call it myself - but I would still say that if you're counting possible trips or two pair as a reason to call, then that's the sort of dreaming I'm trying *not* to do in O8. Though it can pay off, just like those who hold any four cards get the nuts enough to drive you crazy. Anything can happen. Most realistically you're playing for 1/2 the pot at this point, and hoping not only to get a low card, but to not get counterfeited.

I thought Buzz was referring to your raise preflop (the first betting round) as not preferable from your position, as I had said. We'll have to wait and let Buzz clarify that when he checks in again.

Tailgunner · #9 06-06-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i count 10 sb in preflop, then 16 sb on flop
so 8 bb on turn then villain bets so 9bb. If you call that makes 10bb, and if you get half thats 5bb to win, minus the 1 you put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad, I certainly did miscount the preflop bets...

I don't have a problem with the flop raise. On the turn your trip/two-pair outs are already dead to any flush and even if you hit, half of them are counterfeiting you against a 24/34 holding (busting both your high and low hands.) Given your assessment of the table though (and correcting my erroneous calculations on the pot size) I'd probably feel comfortable with a call to see the river as well.

Buzz · #10 06-06-2005, 03:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would appreciate you expanding on the reasons to call instead of raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gooper - It was a gut feeling. As I look at the situation more closely, your second round raise does not seem horrid, but I still would not raise on the second betting round.

[ QUOTE ]
I just feel like a call resigns my hand to be a low draw only.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's basically what you have.

(It is true that you have a chance to scoop with a four, especially a non-heart four, and also with an ace, especially the ace of diamonds. But even if you catch a four on the turn, you'll still need no pair and no heart on the river to win high and low. And even if you catch an ace on the turn, you're not home free. You'll probably need to improve on the river - and 8/9 ways you improve on the river after an ace on the turn enable low for an opponent).

Except for these few cards that in conjunction with other cards might scoop for you, by and large, you're drawing for the low half the pot with no counterfeit protection, and you might get quartered or sixthed for low.

Nobody else with the nut-low draw is going to fold to a raise here and you really shouldn't want anyone with a non-nut-low draw to fold. (You have nothing to promote. If your deuce or trey gets counterfeited, you can't call a bet anyhow).

After your pre-flop raise, if you call on the second betting round, your opponents may put you on a busted low rather than the nut low draw. However, when you raise, you make it more difficult for opponents to chase. It's like fishing: you want to "set the hook" before you start reeling in the catch.

It's a moot point since you miss on the river anyhow.

You will not usually make the nut low on the turn (30 to 15 against, I think), nor will you usually make the nut low using both of the next two cards (525 to 465 against, I think).

To initiate fresh money into the pot, considering the strong possibility of getting quartered or sixthed for low, I think you need at least four opponents who will call your raise. All you have here is four opponents. If everyone calls your raise, it was fine to raise, but if anyone folds to your raise, it's your loss if you make your draw.

Just my opinion.

Buzz