Pooh-Bah +1 - Longish Post About Bad Players

[SmileyEH]

Something I see a lot of in posts these days is 2+2ers describing a player as a donk/fish/moron, and then using this read to justify poor plays later on under the assumption that the said fish is a moron so his bets/calls/raises mean nothing.

I remember one hand Pokerbob posted (not to rag on you bob) where the button open limped while bob was in the SB. He immediately assumed the button was a moron and bet bottom pair all the way to the river because quote, "his IQ is 14." Now, if one actually thought about what this bad player had for a range of hands it would be clear that betting the whole way was incorrect (at least I think it was). More importantly however, I think bob's mistake was that he became so annoyed with the stupid fish, he felt the pot should be his. I'm sure we've all at times been angry at some donk for doing bonehead stuff, but that doesn't mean we should just give up on understanding how a losing player plays and how to exploit that.

What really got me thinking however was this post by QTip. The replies like "he likes you and giving you money," or doesn't know if he has the nuts or not, I think are grossly incorrect for the vast majority of losing small stakes players (I'm thinking from .5/1 all the way up to 15/30). Even bad players think about the game, they try to do their best, and make smart plays. Unfortunately, most of them simply do not have the raw intellect, the knowledge, analytical abilities, or simply discipline to think about the game well enough to win. Whenever I hear losing or most self-taught players discuss a hand I'm consistently surprised both how much they think about poker, but how incorrectly. The precise and analytical way hands are discussed on 2+2 is a far cry from how most players think about the game. Hearing stuff like "well I put him on AK because he raised preflop" is jarring for this stay at home internet poker pro. Without the grounding of books and the tactical framework they provide most of us would be stumbling in the dark like all the fish out there.

But, and this is a big but. That most certainly does not mean these donks are sitting in front of their computers making random plays. They are thinking about the game and doing their best-however flawed that may be. To maximize our profits we must give them credit for this and not justify bad plays because of bad players. "Getting inside the mind of a donk", as QTip says is essential to playing winning poker-anything else is a money wasting copout. So next time a donator makes some bizarre play, I hope you give my thoughts some consideration.

-SmileyEH

[Frog321]

Well said. This is something I have been thinking about lately as well. People are complicated critters. Sometimes they have it together and sometimes not. I play best when I stay interested in the abilities of "morons". There is logic to what they do, even if it is not the logic of "good" poker, that should not be overlooked.

[einbert]

Good post.

[rmarotti]

Great post.

[jason_t]

My heart tells me no, but my brain tells me yes: fantastic post.

[hobbsmann]

Good Post.

Also, last night I was playing 4/8 at Commerce and reading the new card player magazine and there was an article by Scott Fischmann (sp?) about playing deferent limits to try and learn the style of beginning players. He told a story of playing in some celebs and pros poker tournament and how he ended up coming third behind a guy from NSYNC and some actress mainly because he had no clue how they were thinking. He went on to say that later that night he went home and entered a bunch of $10 tournaments in an effort to try and understand beginners better. I thought the great point from his article was that he didn't just assume these players were idiots, but rather understood that beginners use some flawed logic that is different from a winning player, but it is still logic and CAN be understood with some thought.

Hobie

[johnny005]

ok now that we know begginers are thinking alittle different than the rest of us..
How do you think they are thinking differently.. what are they thinking? and why? any thoughts?

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
ok now that we know begginers are thinking alittle different than the rest of us..
How do you think they are thinking differently.. what are they thinking? and why? any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll throw out a couple of examples:
"Last week I folded 73s pre-flop and would have flopped a flush and beat Billy's AA. I am never folding suited cards again."
"Any 8 makes a straight for me (and I have no clue that the pot only contains 4BB) so I am going to call 2BB cold."
"Sweet, I have a pair of Aces. Wait ... why did I lose ... oh, his King kicker is better than my 6. That's BS, kickers shouldn't matter."

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
ok now that we know begginers are thinking alittle different than the rest of us..
How do you think they are thinking differently.. what are they thinking? and why? any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of them are too occupied with hand rankings trying to "make" the optimal hand, and thus overplay suited cards and connected cards and inside straight draws.

I have also noticed that many of the get too scared when an Ace hits the board or the 3rd of a suit hits the board.

[johnny005]

hey i get scared when an ace, or third suit falls :P