Greektown Ruling Question

neotope · #1 06-01-2005, 06:16 PM

I was playing 10/20 at Greektown on Monday and as usual the table was tight. I was trying to adopt to the game but because I was about to head home I ended up playing loose just to get some gamble out of me. It figures just as I was about to leave a memorable hand happened.

I was in EP and looked down at JJ, I raised to $20 and got two callers, MP and LP. These two players were two of the tighter players at the table so I figured I was looking at pairs and high overs. Normally I don't always make this read but this was the kind of table where a lot of hands did not see a flop because of a raise.

Anyways, the flop comes J52 and I decide to bet out. I get raised by MP and LP calls. I look down at my chips intending to raise and when I look up with my raise in hand I see the turn card a Q about to hit the felt. At this point everyone gets all crazy because I have not acted. The dealer gets real nervous (this was his second week I later learn) and calls the floor over.

After about 5 minutes (quick for Greektown) the floor comes over and of course has no idea what to do. He has to go ask another dealer what to do. They decide to burn a card and deal what would have been the river. At this point LP flips out claiming that is wrong.

However, the turn was an A which seemed to make LP happy and I bet out and they both called. The dealer then shuffles the Q back into the stub and deals out the river card without burning a card. This causes LP again to go crazy. He asks for another ruling which takes another 5 minutes and of course the ruling is the same. The river was a meaningless 8. I bet and got called by MP and LP did a helicopter muck. My set was good and LP slammed the table and left the room for awhile.

Later he tells me he folded QQ and was pissed at the floor not at me. I thougt that this situation was handled correctly. A couple players said the river card should have been dealt face down instead of face up. Is this the proper procedure?

Also I can't figure out why Greektown has the worst possible floor staff out of any room I've played in. I think they make the staff at Fallsview look smart.

Randy_Refeld · #2 06-01-2005, 06:52 PM

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Also I can't figure out why Greektown has the worst possible floor staff out of any room I've played in.

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You and others continue to play there so what incentive do they have to hire experienced floor staff?

neotope · #3 06-01-2005, 07:50 PM

That is true, I guess I'll use the excuse that I'm from out of town and have only played there 6 or 7 times [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Koss · #4 06-01-2005, 11:41 PM

It's my understanding that whenever a card is dealt before a betting round is over, the round is completed then the card is put back into the deck and the whole deck is reshuffled. Atleast that's what happened when I played at Greektown a couple weekends ago. I was sitting on flopped quads at the time, and it was the river that was dealt early, but the floor manager (I think he might be one of the competent ones) made the ruling.

Don't even get me started on the Greektown floor staff, I could go on for hours.

youtalkfunny · #5 06-02-2005, 05:28 AM

Here's the common ruling (at the places I have dealt and floored):

1. Pull back the exposed turn card. We'll shuffle it back in later, if we must (personally, I always felt it should be shuffled back in immediately; but then the superstitious among us would whine about getting a different river card than the one they "should" have gotten).

2. Complete the action from the flop.

3. Burn, and put out the next card. This is the card that "would have" been the river anyway.

4. Let 'em bet this fourth card.

5. Shuffle in the exposed card. Cut. DO NOT BURN. Put out the last card.

(I love it when a dealer is asked, "Why don't you burn a card there?", and they reply, "Because I already have enough burn cards down.")

DeuceKicker · #6 06-02-2005, 02:13 PM

Re: point 5. OK, but seriously, why don't you burn a card before dealing the replacement? I thought burning was to make cheating harder (don't remember the specifics off-hand) so whenever a card is coming out, shouldn't there be a burned card first?

jedi · #7 06-02-2005, 02:29 PM

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Re: point 5. OK, but seriously, why don't you burn a card before dealing the replacement? I thought burning was to make cheating harder (don't remember the specifics off-hand) so whenever a card is coming out, shouldn't there be a burned card first?

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1) An extra card has been burned already (not that this matters)

2) The deck is shuffled and cut immediately before delivering the card, so no one will be able to benefit from a marked top card.

Randy_Refeld · #8 06-02-2005, 02:57 PM

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2) The deck is shuffled and cut immediately before delivering the card, so no one will be able to benefit from a marked top card.

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This is the current reasoning. There are many people (myself, and Bob Ciaffone among others) that believe you should burn a card in this spot to make it harder for a mechanic to influence what card comes up.

youtalkfunny · #9 06-03-2005, 12:42 AM

I have trouble imagining a skilled mechanic, who practices his craft day and night in preparation of using his skills "under fire"...would burn and turn too soon. I mean, it's possible--we all do it--but I'd say the skilled mechanic would be the least likely dealer in the room to commit that error.

Also, a mechanic's best friend is "shade". He pulls his moves when no one is paying close attention, or when the players are distracted for a moment.

There is no time in a cardroom when every player at the table is watching the shuffle--even those not involved in the hand--like there is when a prematurely exposed card is shuffled back into the deck. The dealer has "screwed up", and every player at the table is watching his every move, waiting for the chance to jump in and save the day if he looks like he's about to screw up again.

No mechanic in the world is going to try to pull a move in this spot.

Randy_Refeld · #10 06-03-2005, 12:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have trouble imagining a skilled mechanic, who practices his craft day and night in preparation of using his skills "under fire"...would burn and turn too soon. I mean, it's possible--we all do it--but I'd say the skilled mechanic would be the least likely dealer in the room to commit that error.

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What if the main thing he could do is spot a card in the shuffle (or palm it) and cut it to the top of the deck.