7 Stud: common mistakes made in basic starting hand situations

[King Yao]

Here are some basic starting hand situations where I think most players make mistakes in 7-Card Stud, high only. I’ll define "most" as greater than 75% of players in 10/20 and higher games – full games, not shorthanded. For each situation, A. is the correct way to play, and B. is the way most players play it. Please let me know if you disagree with any of these (I am still very new to stud, I could be very wrong).

1. Player has split K’s. A decent player with split A’s raises two after the bring-in.
A. The player with split K’s should fold.
B. Most players call with split K’s.

2. Player limps in with split J’s when there are two overcards on the board. An overcard raises.
A. The player with split J’s should fold.
B. Most players call the raise with split J’s.

(I was in a 75/150 game with an A showing. The player to my left brought it in with a 2. Three players limped in with J, T and 9 showing, respectively. I raised with my split pair of A's. Everyone folded. Does this mean this is a bad game?)

3. Player raises with split A’s two after the bring-in. A good player re-raises with a Q showing.
A. The player with split A’s should fold on 5th or earlier if unimproved.
B. Most players call through the River.

4. The bring-in is a 2c, and 5 players fold. The Player has split K’s and he raises. The next player (a solid player) has a A showing and he re-raises. (I had asked this question in an earlier post).
A. The player with split K’s should fold on the spot. But he really shouldn’t be doing that too often otherwise a sharp player will make a play on him in these situations.
B. Most players call.

[nef]

1 Fold if you are certain I guess.

For question 2, I think, depending on dead cards, your kicker, and the size of the ante, the person with the jacks should have just folded for the bring in. After that I think B is correct.

For #3 the Aces should call to the river, and possibly call the river unimproved.

For #4 the K raise might look like a steal so the range of hands the person with the A has is larger than usual. I don't think immediately folding is correct.

[Roland]

Nice post.

It really all depends on the structure though. I don’t know what you had in mind, but I’ll give it a try:


[ QUOTE ]

1. Player has split K’s. A decent player with split A’s raises two after the bring-in.
A. The player with split K’s should fold.
B. Most players call with split K’s.

[/ QUOTE ]


It’s just not that simple. Folding might be way wrong, since most players (decent or not) will complete with a lot of hands you can beat (like 3-flushes, buried queens, jacks or maybe even deuces). Calling might be correct, or even raising. I tend to raise, if that’s what it takes to get it heads-up.



[ QUOTE ]

2. Player limps in with split J’s when there are two overcards on the board. An overcard raises.
A. The player with split J’s should fold.
B. Most players call the raise with split J’s.

[/ QUOTE ]


In the Party 5/10 through 20/40 structure he shouldn’t even limp. In a 75/150 structure raising might be correct.




[ QUOTE ]

3. Player raises with split A’s two after the bring-in. A good player re-raises with a Q showing.
A. The player with split A’s should fold on 5th or earlier if unimproved.
B. Most players call through the River.

[/ QUOTE ]


So now I can just re-raise you every time no matter what I’m holding when you raise with an ace up, because you’re going to fold on 5th fearing trips?



[ QUOTE ]

4. The bring-in is a 2c, and 5 players fold. The Player has split K’s and he raises. The next player (a solid player) has a A showing and he re-raises. (I had asked this question in an earlier post).
A. The player with split K’s should fold on the spot. But he really shouldn’t be doing that too often otherwise a sharp player will make a play on him in these situations.
B. Most players call.

[/ QUOTE ]


Okay, depending on your opponent, folding might be best. I think most people have the aces in this spot. They’ll usually just call you if they can’t beat kings. Then again, this is probably not the case in a 75/150 game.


[ QUOTE ]

(I was in a 75/150 game with an A showing. The player to my left brought it in with a 2. Three players limped in with J, T and 9 showing, respectively. I raised with my split pair of A's. Everyone folded. Does this mean this is a bad game?)

[/ QUOTE ]



I think it means you should raise every time you have an ace up…

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]

3. Player raises with split A’s two after the bring-in. A good player re-raises with a Q showing.
A. The player with split A’s should fold on 5th or earlier if unimproved.
B. Most players call through the River.



[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[King Yao]

I've bitten off more than I can chew with all 4 situations right now. So I'm going to take them one at a time instead.

1. Player has split K’s. A decent player with split A’s raises two after the bring-in.
A. The player with split K’s should fold.
B. Most players call with split K’s.

I had assumed it was highly likely a player raising with an Ace showing, just two after the bring-in, would have a split pair of Aces. And if it is more than likely that he does, I don’t think Kings should be playing. However, Roland wrote “most players (decent or not) will complete with a lot of hands you can beat (like 3-flushes, buried queens, jacks or maybe even deuces).” This would change things.

So, let's assume the player with the Ace up will only raise with the following four type of hands (if this is a bad assumption, fire away):

AsQs2s – three spades – randomly occurs about 5.6% of the time
AsAc2d – split pair of Aces or trip Aces – randomly occurs about 8% of the time
AsQcQd – a pair in the hole from 7s thru Qs (I eliminated 2s thru 6s and Ks) – randomly occurs about 3% of the time
AsQcJd – two cards in the hole J or higher (should this be T or higher?) – about 2.4% (bringing it down a touch so we get a round number for the total) of the time.

That’s a total of 19% of the time this player will complete with an Ace up and two after the bring-in. That means there are 5 other players yet to act. What do you guys think about 19%? It feels about right to me from that spot. Some will clearly raise more often (with A22), some will limp in with drawing hands (As9s3s), so I think this is close to representative against a decent player.

So this means when the decent player two after the bring-in raises, he’s got these hands with these percentages of the time:
AsQs2s – 29.5% (I got this by 5.6% / 19%, won't show the work for the other hands)
AsAc2d – 42.1%
AsQcQd – 15.8%
AsQcJd – 12.6%


Against these 4 hands, KK3 will win this percentage of the time (numbers from twodimes.net)

AsQs2s – 63%
AsAc2d – 33%
AsQcQd – 58%
AsQcJd – 72%

So now the whole table shows:

Opp.’s Hand / Prob. KK will beat this hand / Prob. opponent has this hand
AsQs2s – 63% x 29.5%
AsAc2d – 33% x 42.1%
AsQcQd – 58% x 15.8%
AsQcJd – 72% x 12.6%

The total sum of the products is 50.7%.

This means against a player that plays the way assumed, the pair of Kings should win 50.7% of the time. Obviously this is just a cursory look, as I’m assuming its an all-in situation. But overall I think this should be fairly close if we assume neither can outplay the other in future rounds.

Against a player who often limps with an A showing in early position, maybe that means he’s more of a limper with 3 flush hands, and 3 high card hands, and pair with A up hands. Against those players, a raise would signify a split pair of Aces much more often, and against them, folding is best.

Against a player who raises with many more hands, such as with a hidden pair of 2s or AsTs9c, then the split pair of Kings has much greater equity in the hand and should definitely play the hand.

Against a player as described in the calculations above, it doesn’t’ matter what you do in the long run. You’ll just have some volatility. So if you want lower volatility then you should fold. If you feel like gambling with Zero EV (I have no problem with that!), then go ahead and play.

So, I am ready to change my answer to:


1. Player has split K’s. A decent player with split A’s raises two after the bring-in.
A. Call, raise or fold, it doesn't matter how you play against decent players who aren't too loose or too aggressive. ( in case you are wondering, I did a separate calculation which made me comfortable that raising and folding is about the same - I assumed the bring-in had a split pair of 2s, and saw the differences between knocking him out with a raise, or keeping him in with a call - all in all, it seemed a wash)
B. Since it doesn't matter, then those that play all the time are not making a mistake.

Of course, some of my assumptions may be wrong, or you may disagree with them (you, meaning the reader, not Roland specifically), in which case it would change the results.

[Biloxi]

[ QUOTE ]

3. Player raises with split A’s two after the bring-in. A good player re-raises with a Q showing.
A. The player with split A’s should fold on 5th or earlier if unimproved.
B. Most players call through the River.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this considering there are no dead aces or queens? Depends on how the hand is played on 4th. Its hard to think about these situations without more details imo

[King Yao]

I'm assuming no dead cards for either Q or A.

I'm in the process of learning the game and trying to figure things out. I could easily change my mind with a good argument to the contrary.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

My biggest problem has been playing high pairs unimproved and playing hands such as split jacks on third when there are two or three overcards still to act. With the jacks situation, I complete almost every time, although i'm starting to feel as if this is a mistake.

[SittingBull]

yet to act,u do not want a re-raise from one of the higher overcard. Hence,just CALL..ALWAYS. If one overcard raises ,u can call one more bet,BUT U do NOT want to call TWO more bets-which is a good possibility. If U call and it's ONE more bet to U,U can call with LIVE J's. If it's TWO more bets to U after u limp,FOLD.

*Now if there is ONLT ONE overcard to UR J's ,RAISE. It's NOT too probable that the other overcard has a split PR of that overcard. U really would like to knock it out on 3rd.
If U are re-raise,go ahead and call . If U improve on 4th,and ur Oppo. rags out,go ahead and continue to play.
With 2 PRS.,drive it hard unless Oppo. PRS on board. Depending on pot odds and what u perceive your Oppo. to have,U will either FOLD OR CONTUE to play on 5th.
If U make a decision to continue on 5th,U generally must continue thru 7th UNLESS IT'S VERY OBVIOUS THAT U ARE BEAT.The pot is too large relative to the bet to fold at this point.
SittingBull

[Jacob_Gilliam]

The problem is that I play mostly micros (.50/1.00), and if I call, they call, and if I raise, they call. This is why I hae split jacks. Even if none of the overcards has me beat right now, they're staying with me, and with four to come for each of them if I don't improve I'll usually be behind by the river. I'm starting to give serious consideration to folding these hands on third when facing 3 overcards, maybe only 2.