Overpair Anonymous

Finite_Risk · #1 05-30-2005, 11:23 AM

Hi...my name is Jon...and I have a problem. I am a tight player that raises high pairs and then apparently has no idea how best to play undercard flops.

In all seriousness, I am really struggling with this...how to know when to shut down.

Hand 2 - villian plays many pots and loves to small bet almost any flop. I know the flop call is horrible, but what do I do if I raise and get called (he would call with either a J or 10 so I'm not sure it defines much). Please don't accuse this of being a bad beat post - I am really trying to figure out best where I am here.

Hand 1- villian is LAG...is this just unavoidable...do I reraise flop?...anyone do anything different? Funny thing is that villian checked behind after typing "rivered you"...like he knew I had overpair, but kept calling anyway, gets third T and checks?!?!

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

MP3 ($42.35)
CO ($55.05)
Button ($118.68)
Hero ($84.9)
BB ($47)
UTG ($30.77)
UTG+1 ($36.45)
UTG+2 ($40.27)
MP1 ($77.75)
MP2 ($50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $2.75, 1 fold, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $2.50, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($7.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $8, MP1 raises to $16, Hero calls $8.

Turn: ($39.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $12, MP1 calls $12.

River: ($63.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: $63.50

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Ac (two pair, aces and tens).
MP1 has Qs Tc (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: MP1 wins $63.50. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

MP1 ($47)
MP2 ($39.25)
MP3 ($23.55)
Hero ($71.8)
Button ($53.65)
SB ($26.4)
BB ($109.9)
UTG ($51.9)
UTG+1 ($27.48)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $2.50, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($7.25) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1, Hero calls $1.

Turn: ($9.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $5, Hero calls $5.

River: ($19.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $5, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $29.25

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has 9s Td (three of a kind, tens).
Hero has Ad As (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $29.25.

rikz · #2 05-30-2005, 12:16 PM

Hand 1 -

You might want to leave the results off until after you get a few responses because I can see that the results show you got your money in with the best hand on every street, but just got unlucky on the river. So, the results seems to indicate good play, but bad luck. But I'll try not be so results oriented.

So, what beats you on the flop that LAG would call your preflop raise with? 97s is a flopped straight. 88, 66, TT is a set. T8s, T6s, 86s is two pair. All of these seem like possible holdings for a LAG with position on you after the flop. He might also have called with any other connectors, one gappers, or pocket pairs since your raise was standard-sized and he already had .5 in the pot.

What range of hands would he reraise your flop bet with? My guess is that he would min-reraise your flop bet with just about any pocket pair (i.e. 99 giving him a pair and a gut shot straight). That kind of bet by villain seems like he puts you on having a hand like AK or AQ or AJ and wanted to push you, who he may read as weak-tight, off your missed over cards. As a side note, I find that kind of min-reraise to a continuation bet from the pre-flop raiser is very effective if I have any piece of the flop or a mid-pocket pair, especially with position. AK or AQ will often call/check/check. Unimproved on the turn or river, I win with my low pocket pairs just checking the rest of the way. Better hands, like a set, will often get excited and re-reraise - letting me fold.

He probably doesn't have premium hole cards because a LAG would have most likely reraised with any kind of big pair (AA, KK, QQ) or big A, like AK. So, you are way ahead, probably most of the time, or way behind.

I think the main thing is to keep the pot small without appearing too weak. Maybe betting 5 into the 7.50 flop might have given you the same information. He would have reraised to 10, then you call (pot 27.5 instead of 39.5).

Then on the turn, as you played it, the 12 bet is pretty weak. I think check/calling, or even check/raising (then folding to an all-in) here is better than making a small bet like this. I don't see too many free cards hurting you (except the board tripping up villain's pair, which ended up happening). Or, if you want to bet for value, at least bet half the pot (20). If the pot had only been 27.5 instead of 39.5, then half the pot would have been 14 - so your 12 bet might have been better. At this point, if the LAG goes all in, you'd need to go with your read, but I'd probably fold unless I felt he is the kind of guy to bluff big like this on the turn.

With the board pairing on the river, check/call seems OK. If villain went all in on the river, I'd probably fold too. I've seen posts where people make blocking bets, so maybe a blocking bet would have been OK if the pot was smaller. As the pot is 63.50, a meaningful blocking bet would be about $15. Since the only hand calling there is one that probably beats you, I like check/calling to $15 or less, and check/folding to an all-in.

Overall, I thought it was fine as you played it except that the turn bet could have been bigger.

rikz · #3 05-30-2005, 12:24 PM

Hand 2 is an easier play, I think. A $1 flop bet by villain means "I have nothing and want people with even less to fold their hands," or "I have some kind of draw and this is my lame attempt at a blocking bet," or "I have that third T and this is bait for a trap." So, just reraise the flop up to $5 and stop putting any more money in after that. If he calls on a board like that, then goes ahead and KEEPS betting, then he's probably got you beat. If he just has the J, he'll probably check it down to the river.

So, make a serious reraise on the flop, and assume you're most likely beaten if he reraises, assume you're most likely beaten if he calls, then bets out 1/4 pot or more on later streets, and assume you'll win if he checks to the river with you checking along as well.

I dislike your call/call/call play. You get no information, and you pay out a lot of money by the river.

BZ_Zorro · #4 05-30-2005, 12:29 PM

Hand 1: Ouch. On the flop you could min reraise...LAGs love that. Calling isn't terrible either, depending on how aggressive he is.

The turn is tough. I'm guessing your turn bet is trying to instigate a raise...was just unlucky he didn't bite. I like to play it safe with a good hand, so I'd bet $30-$40 here, but checking to instigate aggression isn't bad either. It depends entirely on the habits of this paritcular LAG you're up against, and good notes and observation are essential.

Hand 2:
J, T, T

Trips is always a dangerous flop at this level, but playing passively is dangerous too.

I'd probably raise the flop a bit and see what happens on the turn. I don't mind the call on the flop, but I'd raise the turn a meaningful amount, and fold to any strong aggression. You have position, and he'll reveal his hand if you push him a bit. People that like to play/small bet many pots will often fold to sudden aggression if they're beat.

BTW he played his hand badly (considering what you had), and you could have lost more flat calling this...best to find out early imo.

DoomSlice · #5 05-30-2005, 12:44 PM

Hand 1:
I like the stop and go, except bet more on the turn (2/3 or more). I am very surprised that he didn't bet on the river.

Hand 2:
Good thing you didn't lose more here, cause I would have... it looks to me like he has a Jack, but the time to find out is on the flop, and is only accomplished by raising it.

BZ_Zorro · #6 05-30-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...but the time to find out is on the flop, and is only accomplished by raising it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think most players would flat call any flop raise with trips or a J, against an obvious overpair or AK. Hero should either call or small raise the flop, keep the pot small, and find out for sure on the turn.

Finite_Risk · #7 05-30-2005, 04:09 PM

I totally agree...if he calls raise....is it a J or 10??? that's why I just called...still not sure how best to define it, just sucks that I got these two AA hands in about 15 min and was the only real hand I saw for a while...just horrible flops (esp j 10 10) and whimpy betting (hand where he caught the 3rd 10)...thx for comments

amoeba · #8 05-30-2005, 04:11 PM

hand 1 is played perfectly.

I would have made it a bit more on the turn, say $20.