Weak fold?

[Andreas]

Online 2-4 game. I'm 2nd UTG with KQo. What to do... I decide to limp. Maybee it's a fold in that position. I'm not sure...

No raise and we flop it 6 way. (Whoa!)

The flop is: Qs 9s 9d

SB checks and BB bets. I fold...

Comments?

/Andreas

[butters]

i'd raise here every time. there's a whole lot of hands that BB could be betting here that are worse than yours. with a possible flush draw out there, you also don't want to give any free cards. you'll be able to figure out if someone's got a 9 pretty quickly.

[KOJAK]

Your pre-flop play is fine.

This is a bad fold. Mathematically speaking, the BB is more likely to have a Q than a 9, and if he had AQ, he probably would have raised. If he has KQ, you'll split. If he has anything else with his Q (which is probably the case here), you've got him outkicked and you want to raise to get it heads-up.

You have to raise 100% of the time in this spot.

[King_J]

"This is a bad fold. Mathematically speaking, the BB is more likely to have a Q than a 9"

Why is that so? The chances are exactly the same.

[72offsuit]

The probability that none of 5 random 2-card holdings contain a 9 (given the 2 9's on the board) is 1-36*37/46*47=38%.
Now the hands held by 3.5 (counting the SB as one half only) of your opponents are not quite random, since they didn't fold.
This increases the probability just a little, let's say it's 40%.

Now the BB is betting into 4 opponents. He probably either has a 9 or a Q (a priori both equally likely, there are 2 left of each in the deck).
So, your chances of actually being ahead are a bit below 50%. It's clear you should raise. Of course, you would have to fold to a reraise
if it comes from someone behind you. If the reraise comes from the BB with everyone else folding you're probably in trouble too and you would have to judge how tricky the BB is.
In general, though, I would fold against a reraise by the BB.

[Andreas]

I'm surprised so many considered it such a bad fold. Maybe I need to reevaluate my game. (To much NL is likely).

The reasons I fold are:
A) If I'm behind I'm WAY behind with only two outs.
B) Even if the bettor only has a Q. There are 3 people yet to be heard of behind me that might have a 9.
C) If I do play, any spade kills my hand. (Someone is bound to have the flushdraw with all these limpers).

So, had the pot been three-way or so I would agree that it's a bad fold. But since it was 6-way I think it is a different story.

Results? Js Ts called on the button and made his flush on the turn.

Greets, Andreas

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

This is exactly why you raise on the flop. You are only way behind to a 9, and that person will reraise. It's a fairly good bet that you are ahead of any Q that's out there, as AQ or QQ would have raise pre-flop.

As it is (and you don't give much detail, so I'm assuming a lot here), the flush draw was probably getting 12-1 to call here, a huge overlay. If you raise, there's a good chance you knock out the limpers in between. Now he's still getting the right odds to call your bet, but you've eliminated the possibility of losing if a non-spade overcard hits, so you're increasing your chances of winning the hand.

I think you're right that you've been playing too much NL. I think this is a pretty easy raise in limit.

[Ed Miller]

You definitely shouldn't play KQo up front if you are going to fold here. Then again, you probably shouldn't play KQs up front in that case either. If someone has a 9... someone has a 9... and you can fold to their turn raise. But there are only two 9's left... and it's not certain at all that someone has one. You need to raise here.

[JTG51]

No one else really mentioned the preflop play, so I will. I raise KQo first in from EP most of the time. You really don't want a 6 way pot with KQo.

[bernie]

unless this is a very passive player, who only bets when he has it, id raise just about every time. NOT everytime, but just about, exception mentioned earlier....it's raise fold here. then if checked to on the turn, id check behind. some passive players will think youre outkicking theyre 9 and will resolve to call it down...even if they have a decent kicker. why? because they wouldnt raise the Q here, theyd call, but they would only think of raising if they had a 9. theyre on lvl one thinking. they know what they have, but forget that you dont know that. so they think, i have trips an he's raising, he must have something close to better...

not all players, but many passives think this way...

if he reraises you on the flop THEN id consider folding. this is actually a pretty simple hand to play...

about limping with KQ in passive games..

usually if you hit your hand you should be good...AK or AQ would raise, so would KK or AA.....sometimes QQ (actually sometimes AQ too) this is one of my favorite hands on passive predictable tables because of the readabilitiy.

b