from Sklansky's article

[NMcNasty]

"The best limit hold 'em player is either someone who has graduated to the giant mixed games or is a regular middle high player making over $100 an hour. No $15-$30 player is making $50. And no one would give up $2,000 a week indefinitely just to stay comfortable."

Am I misreading this or is he implying that no one is making more than 2 big bets an hour playing 15/30 and that no one is making even 1 big bet per hour playing high stakes(75/150 and up)? Intuitively it seems as if someone playing 4k/8k could get up to around 3-4 big bets per hour at 15/30 and around 2 BB an hour at something like 300/600.

[Brainwalter]

Did you read that whole part of the article? Doesn't he specifically mention that a 4k/8k player will probably earn less in a 15/30 game than the top 15/30 players?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi McNasty:

Because of the nature of the game, I don't think that anyone can average 3 or 4 big bets an hour in any game. (I'm talking 35 to 40 hands an hour).

My main game this past year has been the $80-$160. Because of the poker boom this game has never been better and I believe an expert can now average a big bet an hour, especially if he concentrates his time when the games are at their best.

Best wishes,
Mason

[NMcNasty]

Would you say the same rule applies for online poker? For example if you think an expert can make 1BB an hour at 35/40 hands an hour at high stakes live play, I would assume they can almost make 2BB an hour online where you play twice as many hands.

[NMcNasty]

My main concern is that it seems unlikely the best player in the world can't surpass 2 BB an hour not that the best 4k/8k player can win more than the best 15/30 regular.

Here's the way I see the situation for something like online 15/30:
Most players are donks and lose money.
A few players who are intelligent and have some experience have a positive winrate of a max of 1 BB an hour.
A devoted expert player with at least one year of experience and true discipline earns a max of 2 BB an hour.
So we have gone from no experience to a few months experience to a few years experience which moves us from less than zero to 1 to 2 bets respectively. Now we suddenly add the best player in the world who has at least 10 years of experience (probably at least 20). He has ten times the experience of an expert 15/30 player but we can't assume he makes 1 or 2 big bets more?

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
"The best limit hold 'em player is either someone who has graduated to the giant mixed games or is a regular middle high player making over $100 an hour. No $15-$30 player is making $50. And no one would give up $2,000 a week indefinitely just to stay comfortable."

Am I misreading this or is he implying that no one is making more than 2 big bets an hour playing 15/30 and that no one is making even 1 big bet per hour playing high stakes(75/150 and up)? Intuitively it seems as if someone playing 4k/8k could get up to around 3-4 big bets per hour at 15/30 and around 2 BB an hour at something like 300/600.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does Sklansky even read these forums? Ok in the land of dinosaurs some players still only play B&M, one slow table at a time. Yeah, your 15/30 players there are going to need to move up to make great money.

But c'mon. An eight tabling 15/30 who can pull in 1.5 BB/100 online is not exactly a rare bird.

You'd think, Sklansky of all people would make it clear that he's talking about live play only. Is it possible he doesn't truly grasp the sweep of the online poker world, a world he's helped to create?

--Zetack

[MicroBob]

good post. my thoughts exactly.


a player who is capable of beating party 15/30 and has the bankroll for nothing higher than party 15/30 as well as the ability to play 4 or more tables can certainly make more than $100/hour.


This really is a strange statement when matched with his bit in the intro to SSHE where he says (correctly) that an online 3/6 player can make $50k/yr.
Well...this is $25/hr at 3/6 (40 hour wk X 50 wks).

Since he has already essentially written previously that a 3/6 player can make $25/hr then it should be obvious that a 15/30 player can make $100/hr even without the proof of all the players on 2+2 who are already doing it.

[grimel]

I'd say Sklansky figured when he mentioned 4k/8k everyone would realize he was talking B&M play.

[phish]

I think you're all forgetting the reason for Sklansky's original speculation: who are/is the best holdem player in the world. Could it be some 15/30 player? He answers no. I agree with this answer but not with much else he wrote.

The reason he gave for his 'no' is that one could make a lot more playing bigger and the best player would not give up this much profit just to avoid the variance. That may be true, but I think a stronger reason for 'no' is that to become the best player, you have to play against many different types of opponents, including other world class players. You simply won't find that in the 15/30 game. The best 15/30 players will beat that game for more than a world class player, but that 15/30 player will not be able to adjust properly (at first anyways) to playing with other world class players. (It may well be that the most naturally talented holdem player in the world has never played higher than 15/30. But he is clearly not the best until he has developed the skills to play with a different group of opponents.)

As for Sklansky's speculation that the best holdem players are playing at the higher limits making over $100 an hour. That figure seems way too low. Given that unlike Stud or the Mixed games, straight Holdem is not often spread regularly at stakes much higher than 100/200, I would argue that the best players at those games can still make much more than $100/hour, even at a casino.

And the best holdem player at the big mixed games (300/600 and up) can easily make much more than $100/hour during the holdem cycles.

And then there are the online games. The best limit holdem players online make a hell of a lot more than $100 per hour.

[tolbiny]

"Because of the nature of the game, I don't think that anyone can average 3 or 4 big bets an hour in any game. (I'm talking 35 to 40 hands an hour)."

Sklansky's article was claiming that no one out there was making 1.67 bb/100 in the 15/30 game. It seems that his premise is that anyone with that ability would have moved up in stakes, right? Or is his premise that no one can beat that game for 1.67 bets?