Overcards...I'm Confused!

[Dave H.]

I have read and reread the SSHE section on how to play overcards and I'm still confused. Any help would be appreciated.

In general, I'm supposed to assign 1.5 outs to each overcard. Let me do a simple example to help explain my confusion.

Let's say I'm playing $2/$4 limit. I have K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I'm, let's say, in middle position. I call a single bet and there are 4 other callers including both blinds.

So that puts 5 bets in the pot. Now the flop comes up ragged...7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Looks to me like a good time to play my overcards. But, with only 5 bets in the pot and only 3 outs (2 overcards at 1.5 outs apiece), my pot odds aren't even close. That's where my confusion comes in...i.e. with 3 outs, I need about 15 bets in the pot for justifiable pot odds, do I not?

Further, assuming I'm not already incorrect, if there are, in fact, the requisite 15 bets in the pot, that probably means that several people have pretty good hands and all I have is two overcards...doesn't seem too smart to continue in that situation.

So where is my thinking/analysis going wrong??

Thanks for your help.

[ianlippert]

I think it has more to do when you flop a stronger draw. So you have K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the flop comes T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

You now have a weak draw to two over cards (3 outs since someone may have a straight off your overcards) gutshot with the Q (4 outs) and a back door flush draw (1.5 outs) so your hand is worth approximately 8.5 out or about a flush draw. So when you have overcards on a raggy board you probably will just check and fold when there are 4 ppl in the pot. KJo is a pretty crappy hand.

[jstewsmole]

There are to many people in this pot to play those cards IMO especiall y with both blinds in. The pot is way to small. u want a relatively uncordinatd board and less opponents to play these cards. Id fold to any bet unless u think its a bluff at the end and chc raise it. theyll probably fold on the spot i fit was a bluff or i f they dont ucan fold to a bet on the turn. Strronger overcards to play are like AK or AQ.

[NMcNasty]

You're basing your decision to call based on pot odds instead of your total odds. When you hit your overcards usually you'll pick up an average of about 2 more big bets, so you have to add those bets to the pot odds to get total odds. Also the flop you mentioned is a lot more ragged than average. You can probably count your overcards as being 4-5 outs instead of 3. Still, a call in that hand is marginal at best.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it has more to do when you flop a stronger draw. So you have K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the flop comes T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

You now have a weak draw to two over cards (3 outs since someone may have a straight off your overcards) gutshot with the Q (4 outs) and a back door flush draw (1.5 outs) so your hand is worth approximately 8.5 out or about a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
On that board, a 7 would also give you a straight.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=987288
J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 0.517
A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 0.483

You need to put your opponents on a range of hands based on the betting. Don't neglect the possibility that your KJ-high may be good, or that all better hands will fold if there is some action on the flop.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Where were the 2 callers that weren't in the blinds? This speaks to your preflop play. It's easier for you to dictate the action postflop with overcards if you raised preflop. Your bet here won't get 4 opponents to fold very often, therefore you should probably back off.

Preflop, KJo is a tough hand. You'd rather have few opponents, but any hand that plays with you if you raise is trouble.