QQ, had this plan...sort of backfired

arkady · #1 05-26-2005, 01:56 PM

1st orbit at table. The guy betting into me on the turn is too aggressive postflop. From what I have seen he just doesnt really care about board texture. Of course after 1 orbit what can I really surmise? So anyway, I figured I am going to charge the singleton hearts. All of a sudden I get 3-bet and figure, what I *should* have done...was waited for a non heart river. THEN raised! Then I tought maybe I am still ahead, why even fold? No, folding is right. IS it? Arkady is confused.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, Hero folds.

River: (15 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)

MP bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

P.S. Playing against unknowns is a pain in the arse.

kurosh · #2 05-26-2005, 01:59 PM

Raising is fine when you don't have a heart and can fold to the 3-bet.

ISF · #3 05-26-2005, 02:07 PM

looks perfect.

Alobar · #4 05-26-2005, 02:21 PM

waiting till the river to raise = not good

I think you played it fine

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. Playing against unknowns is a pain in the arse.

[/ QUOTE ]

amen!

Guy McSucker · #5 05-26-2005, 02:48 PM

Hmmm, you're getting 8.5-1 to call it down here. Yes, things look bad, but there is always a decent chance of stupidity in our opponents. I don't think I would be able to make this fold, especially not in the $10/20 game.

Guy.

StellarWind · #6 05-26-2005, 03:28 PM

Calling turn = awful. Aside from the fact that you have no good reason to think you are behind, you absolutely must protect yourself in a 4-handed pot. Not only is there great value in this raise, you will force some huge Sklansky mistakes as players either fold the best heart or call to draw to the second best heart.

I'm really not sure about folding to the 3-bet. BB is obviously an issue because he may have you and he surely has outs, but I don't really believe him. MP probably has you beat but that is far from certain. He could just have the nut flush draw with a pair or a six. He might even think you are both overplaying/semibluffing and be working a free showdown/protection play with a ten plus possibly a heart kicker.

I'm inclined to call the turn and see what happens next. When you are ahead you will often get a free showdown. You are not committed to calling the river unimproved unless you want to.

arkady · #7 05-26-2005, 04:22 PM

Why don't you believe MP?

Overall I like what you are saying, except one thing. What do you mean unimproved river? Even with a rivered Q i am not sure where I stand. What river improves me?

mperich · #8 05-26-2005, 04:49 PM

NH.

-Mike

StellarWind · #9 05-26-2005, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Overall I like what you are saying, except one thing. What do you mean unimproved river? Even with a rivered Q i am not sure where I stand. What river improves me?

[/ QUOTE ]
There is a very real possibility you are facing two pair or a set. You clearly need to call one on the river if you get the safe top set. Beyond that it is case-by-case if the board pairs or you get the wrong queen.

tongni · #10 05-26-2005, 08:39 PM

I don't see what hand he could have that you are ahead of, or even drawing against. 54? A10 with the A of hearts? This is a easy turn fold for me, especially when BB calls. If there's some way that I could possibly be ahead of MP, BB probably has at least two pair and wanted you to raise the flop to get it HU against an overpair.