Raise the turn with a set?

singularity · #1 05-24-2005, 11:59 PM

Is there any way to protect this hand with this flop? How would you play this hand? Reads: Villain2 is a LAG. No reads on Villain1.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $4.
2 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB :#A500AF(Villain1)/ completes, BB :#A500AF(Villain2)/ raises, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB :#A500AF(Villain1)/ calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Villain1 checks, Villain2 bets, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, Villain1 raises, Villain2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

I figured I could not get any four flushes or open end straights to fold to a raise; planned to raise the turn. I did not expect Villain1 to check raise the flop.

Turn: (10.16 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Villain1 bets, Villain2 calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button folds, Villain1 calls, Villain2 calls.

I raised at this point for value, to eliminate players and to give the draws incorrect calling odds. Later after reviewing this hand I realized that even with the raise the four flushes and open end straights had the correct calling odds.

River: (18.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Villain1 checks, Villain2 checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Villain1 calls, Villain2 calls.

Final Pot: 21.16 BB

crunchy1 · #2 05-25-2005, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any way to protect this hand with this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes - raise!! Villian2 put you in the perfect position to face the field with two cold. That being said - I'm not sure that you want to protect. It's true you're not getting a flush/straight draw to fold and you're welcoming overcard calls so why not just raise for value - they're probably coming along for the ride anyways and you very likely have the best hand with out's to improve if you don't.

When it comes back around and Villian 1 c/r the flop I definitely don't hesitate in 3-betting for value here.

aK13 · #3 05-25-2005, 12:10 AM

You're not folding out any OESD or flush draws on the turn raise, either. Just raise for value here.

Dudd · #4 05-25-2005, 12:10 AM

That is the clearest raise for value I've ever seen. If you aren't going to raise that flop, you better raise that turn every single time. In fact, I'd probably raise the flop too since I won't be able to price anything out on the turn either. Flushes and straights still have odds to see the river, so I'd keep pumping it until it wouldn't let me anymore. Even if someone has the straight already, you have a nice draw to a full house that will usually be good.

singularity · #5 05-25-2005, 12:14 AM

I did not raise the flop because I figured that this was one of those hands where the only way to protect the hand was to wait for the turn and the big bet would reduce the draws calling odds. Isn't this what Ed Miller talks about in SSH?

Harv72b · #6 05-25-2005, 12:22 AM

I'd just like to point out that, the way the flop & turn played out, you're actually giving CO & Button better pot odds with your raise on the turn than they'd have had if you'd raised the first time on the flop.

It's okay with this kind of a flop to wait until the turn to raise. But when Villian1 check/raises the field, you pretty much have to throw waiting for a safe card out the window & start raising for value immediately. You also have to take into account that it's very possible that none of your opponents are holding diamonds, but a third diamond showing up on the turn would kill your action & make a raise impossible there.

rmarotti · #7 05-25-2005, 12:23 AM

I'm going to play the answer the OP w/o reading it game and say "yes."

edit: I win!

singularity · #8 05-25-2005, 12:35 AM

I was not expecting Villain1 to C/R the flop. If he hadn't it seems that waiting for the turn would have been the correct time to raise since the PF raiser was to my immediate left.