Fold set of Qs?

Macquarie · #1 05-24-2005, 06:41 PM

Initial raiser is 45% VPIP/ 25% PFR loose aggressive. Reraiser is 25/6, haven't seen him do anything stupid. Flop check looks suspicious to me. Was this a terrible fold?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

UTG ($155.9)
UTG+1 ($110.55)
UTG+2 ($183.75)
MP1 ($538.4)
MP2 ($105.6)
Hero ($92.55)
CO ($191.95)
Button ($96.5)
SB ($69.5)
BB ($99.15)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $4, 1 fold, Hero calls $4, 4 folds, UTG+1 raises to $12, MP1 calls $8, Hero calls $8.

Flop: ($37.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($37.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets $22, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $59.50

Simplistic · #2 05-24-2005, 06:50 PM

i don't like your play on the flop and the turn.

Macquarie · #3 05-24-2005, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like your play on the flop and the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither - that's why I posted. Would you offer me some advice?

amoeba · #4 05-24-2005, 06:54 PM

flop check is ok.

But if you check the flop, I don't think you can fold the turn.

FreakDaddy · #5 05-24-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
flop check is ok.

But if you check the flop, I don't think you can fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think with all the pre-flop action, and considering the board, a flop check is real bad here. Since hero has position if he bets the flop and gets check-raised, he can make a much more solid decision about playing the hand out or dropping it. Since he doesn't, the turn is an even bigger guessing game.

Macquarie · #6 05-24-2005, 07:33 PM

Yes, I should have reraised preflop. That was the first bad decision.

After the reraise, I figured i probably had odds to look for the set. I put the reraiser on AA or KK and so reckoned I'd get paid off.

I agree that checking the flop gets me no more information. Does betting out really get you more information though? I could see a check-raise from AK, and I could alos see a flat call from AA or KK hoping to bring along the loose player and then getting in on the turn.

How much would you bet the flop, and if flat called by one or both, would you get all in on the turn? Call a turn bet?

thanks for the thoughts,

FreakDaddy · #7 05-24-2005, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I should have reraised preflop. That was the first bad decision.

After the reraise, I figured i probably had odds to look for the set. I put the reraiser on AA or KK and so reckoned I'd get paid off.

I agree that checking the flop gets me no more information. Does betting out really get you more information though? I could see a check-raise from AK, and I could alos see a flat call from AA or KK hoping to bring along the loose player and then getting in on the turn.

How much would you bet the flop, and if flat called by one or both, would you get all in on the turn? Call a turn bet?

thanks for the thoughts,

[/ QUOTE ]

A flop bet accomplishes the following things
1) You may, even though it's a long shot - win the pot. Ok, so I'm optimistic. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] It still is a small probability though.
2) If someone goes all-in, you can drop the hand. Would AKs go all-in, yes. Would AK also check-raise, yes. Not betting though gets you no feel for how the flop hit your opponents. Because you didn't re-raise pre-flop a check/all-in on the flop, even though you may be ahead, is still a reasonable drop.
3) May buy you a free showdown. Slim possibility also, but it is a possibility.

To answer your question, I'd bet a minumum of 2/3 pot on the flop. If I was flat called I wouldn't push on the turn. That sounds even more sirens and I'd hope that it would just get checked through.

Macquarie · #8 05-24-2005, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]

A flop bet accomplishes the following things
1) You may, even though it's a long shot - win the pot. Ok, so I'm optimistic. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] It still is a small probability though.
2) If someone goes all-in, you can drop the hand. Would AKs go all-in, yes. Would AK also check-raise, yes. Not betting though gets you no feel for how the flop hit your opponents. Because you didn't re-raise pre-flop a check/all-in on the flop, even though you may be ahead, is still a reasonable drop.
3) May buy you a free showdown. Slim possibility also, but it is a possibility.

To answer your question, I'd bet a minumum of 2/3 pot on the flop. If I was flat called I wouldn't push on the turn. That sounds even more sirens and I'd hope that it would just get checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still not sure. You say you fold to a check-raise, but the AK hand that you beat does this as well as the AA/KK, and so you are folding after betting without gaining any information.

If you get flat called you say that sounds even more sirens, so you are saying that you think you may well be losing even if you get flat called.

A fold to your bet seems very unlikely. I'm probably losing if I get flat called or check-raised? Chances of the hand getting checked through seem to be almost zero, and so what am I gaining by my flop bet? I'm betting to buy information, but I don't seem to be getting any information for my money.

If I bet 25 on the flop, and get flat called, I have 50 dollars left and a pot of about 85 dollars. I'm pretty close to pot committed at this stage.

If I bet the flop and get check raised, I still don't know whether I am against AK or KK/AA, and so I have to call don't I, getting 2 to 1 on my final call?

So,if I bet the flop, I seem to be going all the way regardless of what he does. Am I wrong on this?

Betting to find out where you are is a good general rule. In this case though, he either has a very strong hand (two pair) or a super-strong hand (top or second set). He is going to play strongly whether I beat him or not, and so my bet to get information will tell me only that he is strong, but I knew that already!

theblitz · #9 05-24-2005, 06:56 PM

I am betting out this flop. It is the only way to get any idea where you stand.
If you get raised then you can safely lay this down.

ChuckyB · #10 05-24-2005, 06:56 PM

Gotta bet the flop. His limp/raise concerns me, but you have to find out where you are. It could still be AKs